some previous discussion: https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/295

some previous discussion: https://pagure.io/atomic-wg/issue/295

Yeah, @dustymabe linked that in a previous meeting and this is the follow-up ticket since we didn't want to reopen that first one.

In essence, this ticket is about getting rid of the other mailing lists in case they're seen somewhere (ergo keeping the decision of the previous ticket to use one for automated, one for discussion) and thinking of eliminating or renaming the #fedora-atomic channel so it is clearer what it's about.

If people don't want to get rid of #fedora-atomic, then at least someone please change the description of it because right now it doesn't state that it's only build-related discussions. And most people won't read the description too carefully, hence the proposal to rename or delete if not needed.

As @jberkus put it in the previous ticket: 'It's bad enough that we're asking them to join a mailing list or an IRC channel at all; asking them to join multiple lists and channels is an automatic "Forget it, I'll use something else".'

That's exactly true - we've decided to stick with IRC and mailing lists which means we have to at least make it easier and less confusing to use them.

I'll repeat my comment from the other ticket:

I don't think we want to direct all Fedora-related Atomic development discussion to projectatomic.io -- I don't think that's very discoverable for people in the Fedora community and will lead to confusion about 1) Fedora Atomic Host as an Edition and 2) whether Fedora community people in general are welcome to participate or need to go through some special hoops. I think it will decrease participation from areas like Docs, Marketing, and Ambassadors, right when we need to build that up.

We have enough confusion with the CentOS and Fedora communities, and although I'd like to bring those together where we can (and in fact Atomic is one of those excellent points of collaboration), I think it's really counterproductive in the long run to try to build a third operating system community.

I'm all for your goals, but let's do them with CentOS and Fedora.

Sorry, left out some words above. Should be:

... and although I'd like to bring CentOS and Fedora together where we can, it has been incredibly confusing to users and contributors alike for the past four years.

Initial thoughts:

• :thumbsup: to atomic*@projectatomic.io :arrow_right: atomic@projectatomic.io
• :thumbsup: to #atomic

@mattdm

I'm all for your goals, but let's do them with CentOS and Fedora.

Do you mean have a mailing list for CentOS Atomic and Fedora Atomic?

As to prove my point, we just had a mail to atomic@.

@mattdm As @smilner asked, yes please - need clarification whether you want to move the communities into two entirely?

I want one community, but I don't want to make a new and separate one (resulting in three).

At this point, with CoreOS coming on board in some fashion, that'll make four, or five if we count Red Hat Atomic. Maybe at this point it's best to wait until we know how what we are going to do with that?

I don't like to be stop energy but I also don't want to make this more confusing.

@mattdm We're exactly in tune then, it seems? I want one community as well - the efforts here are to consolidate what we have and make it less confusing - aka cleaning up before we grow more now.

As you know from prior discussion I'm in favor of the other moves.

However, I'm not sure about atomic-announce. In most OSS projects I've worked on, there was at least one communications mechanism which carried only release info, for folks who want a low-traffic way to keep up to date.

Suggestion on fedora-atomic ... rename to fedora-atomic-infra or atomic-infra. Would make it clear what it's for.

You talk sense, @jberkus.

How about this?

• Rename #fedora-atomic to #atomic-build or #atomic-infra (please don't split into Fedora and CentOS on IRC which is already underrepresented when you look at Slack etc. - also change description to reflect what it's actually for).
• Keep atomic-announce and henceforth use it for release notes and other announcements only as well as rename atomic-devel@ to only atomic@. Personally, I'd delete both mailing lists and just use atomic@, but that might be the wrong call when the community grows. Notice the wording - when, not if.

That seems the most sensible thing, we can keep things as they are, except for deleting one mailing list and shortening the actually used one. The only thing we're doing is renaming and streamlining the processes for growth.

I know we have a confusing branding problem, but... We have spent considerable effort and resources putting Atomic Host into a top-level position in Fedora. It has one of the very limited prominent positions as a Fedora Edition. Look at https://getfedora.org.

I don't want users to see that, download and install it or launch it in EC2, and then when they go looking for community or help be told "Oh, no, that's not really in Fedora. That's a hollow shell. You go to this completely other project if you want help or to interact with people."

If that's all we have resources for, maybe we need rethink whether it makes sense for Atomic Host to be an Edition. That would make me really sad, so can we please instead find a solution where engage the Fedora community here?

I don't care if it's co-branded with CentOS... in fact, that's lovely. But, again, having no parts of this in Fedora would be bad.

so i'm embedded too deep into both fedora and atomic communities to have a realistic perspective on this topic, but... I do really feel like #atomic handles both the centos and fedora communities pretty well. We even use our Fedora Atomic Working group to discuss EL things.

Maybe this would be a good thing to bring up during our vFAD next week?

Discussed at VFAD - not fixing for now. Opening another issue if relevant in a few months with more updates.