#61 nick change policy is incongruent with other #fedora- channel conventions
Closed: Fixed None Opened 12 years ago by duffy.

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My IRC nick is: mizmo

Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on this feedback:

-afk and -away nick changes are a pretty standard convention in many of the #fedora- channels (for example, #fedora-admin, #fedora-devel, #fedora-design).

My guess is because if I'm in say #anaconda working with that team, I do not want to get interrupted by private pings and pings from other channels. There is no option to quit IRC, and people do ignore /away messages, especially depending on their client.

The current FAQ nick change policy is in incongruent, then, with the conventions that are pretty standard in #fedora- and other upstream free software project channels. If someone active in many #fedora- channels has to leave #fedora every time they want to change their nick, it's not likely they will stick around.

On the other hand, folks using /nick changes for silliness like /nick joe-ohmygod-i-ate-a-sandwich or changing their nick 20 times within the space of 5 minutes are being reasonably distracting.

My suggestion is that you update your nick changing policy to allow for standard #fedora- conventions, while flagging obvious abuses like rapid nick changes or silly nick changes.

(Although once in a while a little silliness wouldn't hurt)


After a quick look at the channels you have mentioned above:

a) none deal with the enduser issues

b) none have the amount of traffic that #fedora has (#fedora-devel has 300+ people where as #fedora has 450+)

c) our channel rules are published

I am glad to see you actually go through the steps of getting things changed in the proper way.

In my opinion because of the traffic we have in #fedora I perfer that this rule stays in effect.

I know that it can be sort of inconvenient for some people who frequent other channels with different rules and if they have the daily traffic #fedora does I advise those channel to adopt simulair rules so as you said all channel can be consistant.

Thanks for a well-reasoned friendly reply, I know this topics can get heated.

I think it's not really feasible to change the nick changing conventions across all #fedora- channels, let alone the many upstream development channels I'm a part of. It's just not going to happen and is not a viable solution if you want folks involved in other areas of Fedora to participate in #fedora. It seems to serve to maintain the insular status quo.

I don't know how to get people to pay more attention to /away messages; it seems many clients do not handle them.

I do not understand why nick changes can't be silenced, either with a channel setting or individual's client settings if they are that distracting.

Some of the upstream channels I frequent do deal with enduser issues. In fact, some of the upstream channels or other #fedora- channels have visitors who say they have been referred to those channels by #fedora. I do not see such a big difference between 300 and 450 people; to me this seems a similar scale.

Replying to [comment:2 duffy]:

I think it's not really feasible to change the nick changing conventions across all #fedora- channels, let alone the many upstream development channels I'm a part of. It's just not going to happen and is not a viable solution if you want folks involved in other areas of Fedora to participate in #fedora. It seems to serve to maintain the insular status quo.

This is an important point, because one of the most frequent issues #fedora helpers have stated repeatedly in the past is that they would like more participation there (and thus sharing of the load).

''...snip...''

I do not understand why nick changes can't be silenced, either with a channel setting or individual's client settings if they are that distracting.
''...snip...''

In some clients they can be silenced (like irssi); others aren't as smart. Fedora friends who frequent a substantial number of channels do have a right to be able to inform their collaborators and teammates of their status in some way. This can either be done with a nick change (tom_afk) or by setting an away message (/away Back tomorrow 2011-07-01). Abusing either is annoying and should be dealt with firmly but fairly. Disallowing both is unfair to people who are active collaborators.

Replying to [comment:3 pfrields]:

Replying to [comment:2 duffy]:

I think it's not really feasible to change the nick changing conventions across all #fedora- channels, let alone the many upstream development channels I'm a part of. It's just not going to happen and is not a viable solution if you want folks involved in other areas of Fedora to participate in #fedora. It seems to serve to maintain the insular status quo.

This is an important point, because one of the most frequent issues #fedora helpers have stated repeatedly in the past is that they would like more participation there (and thus sharing of the load).

''...snip...''

I do not understand why nick changes can't be silenced, either with a channel setting or individual's client settings if they are that distracting.
''...snip...''

In some clients they can be silenced (like irssi); others aren't as smart. Fedora friends who frequent a substantial number of channels do have a right to be able to inform their collaborators and teammates of their status in some way. This can either be done with a nick change (tom_afk) or by setting an away message (/away Back tomorrow 2011-07-01). Abusing either is annoying and should be dealt with firmly but fairly. Disallowing both is unfair to people who are active collaborators.

I did think of another possibility. Perhaps people who are frequent collaborators elsewhere and live on many other #fedora channels could open up a separate connection for #fedora that uses a different nick, and set that connection not to use any away or nick change messages. While that would be a pretty big imposition on new users, from what I gather most of those folks are not going to fit into this category of sitting in many #fedora channels.

I'd like to see this rule/process changed too.

My understanding is that in the distant past there were a lot of people changing nicks and it got difficult for the channel to assist people due to the noise, but I don't think this is as big an issue now, and in addition our current "enforcement" of this is very spotty.(I see a about 3 warnings in this month and something like 400 nick changes).

I'd propose we change from the current: "no away messages or nick changes" to "avoid excessive or disruptive nick changes", and leave it up to operators to note when it's disruptive.

Replying to [comment:3 pfrields]:

This is an important point, because one of the most frequent issues #fedora helpers have stated repeatedly in the past is that they would like more participation there (and thus sharing of the load).

In some clients they can be silenced (like irssi); others aren't as smart. Fedora friends who frequent a substantial number of channels do have a right to be able to inform their collaborators and teammates of their status in some way. This can either be done with a nick change (tom_afk) or by setting an away message (/away Back tomorrow 2011-07-01). Abusing either is annoying and should be dealt with firmly but fairly. Disallowing both is unfair to people who are active collaborators.

No one has suggested eliminating "/away In a meeting" status changes. These are silent to the channel and as such we don't care. The fact is this is what we would like people to use but Mo says is ineffective.

-- Bob

I see one problem with nick changing, some will abuse it, and some already do.. It would also be bad practice for an op to filter such things as it will prevent them from being able to see problem users who change their nick to -afk - etc. every 5 minutes or worse, prevent them from seeing someone who actually attempts a nick change flood. Nick changing is not only annoying its pointless. If your client does not detect away users by greying them out in the user list or by some other means then maybe you should get a client that does.

~ Randy, N3LRX

Hi Randy / dp67 / N3LRX,

''I see one problem with nick changing, some will abuse it, and some already do.''

Please refer to the original ticket text:

"My suggestion is that you update your nick changing policy to allow for standard #fedora- conventions, while flagging obvious abuses like rapid nick changes or silly nick changes. "

''Nick changing is not only annoying its pointless.''

Please refer to the original ticket text:

"-afk and -away nick changes are a pretty standard convention in many of the #fedora- channels (for example, #fedora-admin, #fedora-devel, #fedora-design). "

''If your client does not detect away users by greying them out in the user list or by some other means then maybe you should get a client that does. ''

Please refer to the original ticket text:

"people do ignore /away messages, especially depending on their client. "

My client handles away messages minimally. It greys out people's nicks in the user list. However, if you directly query someone who is /away, it does not give you notification that they are away (xchat)

However, my client, or the client of anyone who is set /away in hopes of not receiving pings, is not at issue here. It is the clients of people who contact me when I am unwilling to be contacted, and I have no control over the clients others use.

Not a workable solution, but thanks for trying.

We have discussed this quite a bit among ourselves on IRC. Mo, if we are to close the ticket and say "No, this is our policy and we are keeping it the way it is." what happens next?

''We have discussed this quite a bit among ourselves on IRC. Mo, if we are to close the ticket and say "No, this is our policy and we are keeping it the way it is." what happens next? ''

IMHO, its been discussed enough, we understand all the points and the OP's request. Lets just vote on it on Thursday?

the question is, do you want Fedora developers in #fedora or not? Answer that and you'll know what to do.

I don't think we need to break out into threats...There are plenty of fedora developers on #fedora, if they decide not to hang out on #fedora because of a) a policy which has been around for ages and b) because you asked them not to participate on #fedora...then quite frankly, I personally don't want them there.

Pre-emptively, I'm -1 for any change in policy. The OP has changed nicks an insignificant amount of times on the channel (2 nick changes in 1313 in my logs), I don't see where they are coming from.

I would also like to know where they get off making the statement:

''the question is, do you want Fedora developers in #fedora or not? Answer that and you'll know what to do.
''

From a person who spends an insignificant amount of time on the channel, manages to alienate existing helpers...is now threatening to stop developers (or speaking on behalf of them) participating in the support channel.

Someone close the ticket as CHILDISH-VOTEATTHEMEETING

Thanks

Wow, lot's a bad attitude and... snarkyness. I expect more from you Mo. I'm hoping it's just a bad week.

At one point you mentioned upstream projects, I know for one #mysql frowns on nick changes also so we are not alone in our request. If I cared more I would search for more that also align with the #fedora policy.

Again, to "threaten" us with developers not hanging out in #fedora... one could say "I was not aware there were any in the channel, we never hear from them." That being said I guess I am missing the point of the "threat."

Take a step back guys. Where did I make a threat? Look at the original post:

"-afk and -away nick changes are a pretty standard convention in many of the #fedora- channels (for example, #fedora-admin, #fedora-devel, #fedora-design). "

If you want more Fedora devs hanging in #fedora, the nick policy is a problem. That is all I was saying. Please cool off. There's no threatening going on.

Seriously, if I have no power to make everybody use an IRC client that understands /aways, how am I going to have any power to stop Fedora developers from going into #fedora? I have none. Your policies do.

Your eagerness to escalate a statement meant to help you into a threat is a good example of why #fedora is not a good place to be.

My statement makes no reflection on #fedora whatsoever, and I take offense to the fact that you think its representative of the channel.

So essentially, you are saying that fedora developers do not want to participate in #fedora because of the nick changing policy?

And by fedora developers, are we talking redhat employees, or are we talking the code writers and packagers that contribute their free time to the project. If its the latter, then I both maintain and write code for multiple packages within the fedora project...and frankly, I couldn't care less about the nick changes..it certainly doesn't affect my motivation to contribute to (A) the Fedora project and (B) #fedora.

Or do I not count as 1) a contributor, 2) a developer, 3) a packager?

If I don't count as any of the above for the purpose of your demographic...perhaps I need to address my position and contribution to the project?

dcr226, I think you need to calm down and stop taking offense at everything.

This is not about "developers" it is about you.

YOU were warned about the policy. YOU flew off the handle. We now have this ticket and discussion with YOU. "Fedora Developers" don't hang out in #fedora and never have. The number of people kicked and/or banned for Nick changing is incredibly small, why? Because most people are adult enough to say "I'm sorry I did not know" "Sorry my configuration is screwed up in my client" or "Sorry I don't do it often and I will do my best to be respectful" and then they move on.

The channel is not about YOU, it's about the users.

It seems our current faq/policy here is:

"Switching your name based on your various periods of inactivity can also be rather annoying, especially when overused. There are many people in channel, please be considerate of their attention."

So, we really should NOT be warning or saying things to people for non distruptive/anoying or overused nick changes. At most a note with the above content.

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