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#192 condescending and rude behavior
Closed: Fixed None Opened 8 years ago by be0.

Closed: Fixed
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My IRC nick is: be_

Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this
ticket:
I asked for help with an issue with dnf and the response I got was mostly unhelpful ridicule.

Please note other IRC nicks that are involved in this interaction:
fenrus02

Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on
this feedback:
warning the offending user and banning them if offensive behavior occurs again

Any additional notes or logs:
If I hadn't already been using Fedora for 10 years, I might be turned away from contributing or asking for help after this interaction.

IRC log of incident
fedora-irc.log

Considering this user's behavior has been reported before, I think this warrants a permanent ban.
https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/169

Another prior ticket reporting this user:
https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/163

More complaints against this user:

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/149

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/140

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/141

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/137

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/103

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/78

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/68

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/127

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/36

https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/146

Repeatedly, over the course of years, no action has been taken against this user. It is the same case with several other abusive regular users of the channels. It is clear from reading past complaints that this IRC SIG is incapable of effectively governing itself and action is needed from another part of the Fedora Project to make the IRC channels a welcoming and friendly environment.

logs of the incident please

@jbwillia, logs are already attached.

Thank you for you report, I can understand your frustration.

It looks like the package did not reach the mirrors yet, when you tried to dnf install it: It is built for f24 and it's pushed to updates-testing: ​https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2016-6abcb3edad

In best case, dnf --refresh --enablerepo=updates-testing install kdevelop should install the package. You could install the package directly from koji, but you might have to add dependencies to the dnf install line as well.

The packages are now available to me in updates-testing, but it turns out that the updated kdevelop-php package which I also need isn't available to me yet (even trying --refresh just now, thanks for suggesting that). For now, I'm using the AppImage from http://kdevelop.org/ until all the corresponding Fedora packages are updated.

But that's really beside the point. I didn't open this report to ask for more technical assistance. The issue is the way this user treated me and, judging from the other reports, regularly treats people asking for help in #fedora.

In addition to fenrus02, [R]'s sarcasm was also rude.

First, let me say sorry that you had a bad interaction.

I see you already asked the council to step in and take some action, but I think it's still valuable to continue our normal process and let the council do whatever they feel is needed.

That process would be that we would discuss this ticket at our next meeting (thursday at 17UTC in #fedora-meeting) and hopefully fenrus02 would be present and we could all learn from what happened and see if we can do better and what we should do moving forward.

As to the older tickets, I like to hope that we have all learned since then. Were you the same person today as 5 years ago? Some of them I think also lack context.

As for action, what action(s) would you like to see take place?

"I see you already asked the council to step in and take some action, but I think it's still valuable to continue our normal process and let the council do whatever they feel is needed."

Considering how past meetings have gone, I have little trust that anything productive will come of that meeting unless at least one member of the council who is not part of the IRC SIG participates.

"As to the older tickets, I like to hope that we have all learned since then. Were you the same person today as 5 years ago?"

I would like to hope that fenrus02 learned from all those complaints, but the attached IRC log shows that is not the case. I'm not the same person I was 5 years ago, but I wasn't insulting strangers on the Internet 5 years ago nor am I doing so now.

"Some of them I think also lack context."

Sure, some of them do, but taken all together it's abundantly clear that this user has been offensive to others on IRC for years.

"As for action, what action(s) would you like to see take place?"

I propose that fenrus02's operator privileges get revoked and they get temporarily silenced in or banned from Fedora IRC channels, under the condition that any further offenses would result in a permanent ban. The exact amount of time for the temporary ban isn't too important. I suggest 4 weeks. Under no circumstance do I think fenrus02 should be in a position of authority in Fedora after the temporary ban is over.

To be clear, my goal is not revenge on fenrus02, it is to make the Fedora IRC channels a welcoming place where anyone can come for technical help with Fedora.

For information completeness: fenrus02 -> (FAS) fenris02

This ticket will be brought up for discussion at 1:00 PM EST today. Watch #fedora for this announcement.

I'll try to be at the meeting (EDT, right?) but may be a bit late.

My primary feedback is that in the big picture, one negative incident can easily cancel the benefit to Fedora of many years of helping people. We need to err significantly on the side of welcoming, friendly, and patient, even when it's frustrating.

Replying to [comment:16 mattdm]:

I'll try to be at the meeting (EDT, right?) but may be a bit late.

My primary feedback is that in the big picture, one negative incident can easily cancel the benefit to Fedora of many years of helping people. We need to err significantly on the side of welcoming, friendly, and patient, even when it's frustrating.

Yep, EDT. In about 40 minutes or so.

https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2016-09-08/irc-support-sig.2016-09-08-17.00.html

https://meetbot-raw.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2016-09-08/irc-support-sig.2016-09-08-17.00.txt

It was decided to make the following statements more concrete within our Code of Conduct:

  • OPs as a whole will interject when any users gets out of line, regardless of the offender being an OP or a standard user.
  • OPs will be held to a much higher standard than normal users and must abide by both the Fedora IRC Code of Conduct and the Freenode Catalyst Guidelines as a whole.
  • OPs who act in a fashion that is considered to be against any of Fedora's Foundations (Freedom, Friends, Features, First) will have subsequent action taken against them, including (but not limited to) temporary or permanent removal of Operator rights.

Based on internal discussion, the third point will be revised:

  • OPs who act in a fashion that is considered to be against any of Fedora's Foundations (Freedom, Friends, Features, First) will have subsequent action taken against them, including (but not limited to) a warning, temporary or permanent removal of Operator rights.

That's a good start. Now what action will be taken against this OP who violated the Code of Conduct?

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