#97 Translation of the very important announcements/articles
Closed: out of scope 3 days ago by jflory7. Opened 10 months ago by amsharma.

I have seen a comment in the @mattdm's post - https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedoras-strategic-direction-an-update-from-the-council/ , "I think it is a pretty hard read. English is my second language, and I usually don’t have trouble understanding written English, but this piece left me puzzled with what the whole text was saying at times."

And it does make sense that if we have some very important announcements going out, they should be translated in local languages so that we can reach to the wider audience.

There are some online tools available like (https://www.deepl.com/en/translator ) but in that case too a proofread by the native speaker should be done.

Now the question is, how many languages we want to cover and how we can keep up with this effort? Any good suggestions can help.


I would say this should be done by ambassadors (or mindshare) and the i18n team, and we could first limit that for languages where the main website is as at 100% translation (not that we would prevent people from doing in anyway, but I think that translating the website is a more valuable effort than a announcement, so we should push people to that first).

One important question is whether we want to block a announce on a translation, or not, and for how long.

Metadata Update from @amsharma:
- Issue tagged with: help wanted, improvement, type - outreach

10 months ago

I would say this should be done by ambassadors (or mindshare) and the i18n team, and we could first limit that for languages where the main website is as at 100% translation (not that we would prevent people from doing in anyway, but I think that translating the website is a more valuable effort than a announcement, so we should push people to that first).

That is a good suggestions to give it to i18n team but doing it 100% for website ..hmm.. do people have that much bandwidth to accomplish that goal? I think we should take one step at a time, we can start translating the main summary of the important message in the announcement. Something is better than nothing and then check the stats, how many people are actually reading these translated web pages and if the number is significant then putting the efforts for 100% translation makes sense.

One important question is whether we want to block a announce on a translation, or not, and for how long.

Nope, I don't think that we should block anything on translation. We should not stop delivering what we can just because we are not delivering something else.

I feel very strongly that getting the D&I team into the translation business is a step in the wrong direction. We should be including and collaborating with other teams.

This specific content is an update from Matthew may be appropriate to include in the council docs to get it into the translation queue.

I agree with you @bex but how exactly we should make sure that the it is happening, atleast for the most important content.

I totally agree with @bex

@amsharma for example in cases that we see an important announcement that needs to be translated we contact the i18n/l10n teams (post on their ML) and ask for their help to translate the content. We (individually) can help with translations in our own languages, but still, we should collaborate and ask the i18n/l10n teams first - because they already have experience and know how to handle it.

Also, please check this issue we already have open: https://pagure.io/fedora-diversity/issue/33

Either we do it or get it done with other team's help, we need to have a process defined here.

Proposed process:

  1. Determine what content we feel must be multi-lingual
  2. Check with the author of that content to ensure they are ok with it (we may need to commit the content to somewhere else creating a new url/source of truth)
  3. Get the content into a traditionally transmitted place - docs.fp.o is a good start
  4. Give a heads up to the language team
  5. Watch the magic happen

@amsharma can you take point on talking to @jibecfed (or others who are active) on the translation team about this idea? Can you also locate a place on docs.ffp.o for the content you feel must be translated in this specific instance?

@bex thanks for purposing it.

I would like to propose a slight shift in this process -

  1. We have two main platforms of communication - commblog and magazine, whenever writers are pushing their content to either of these two, they should have two questions popped up -
    - Do you want your content to be translated in multi-lingual?
    - Why do you think it should be translated?

  2. Depending on the choice of the author, a mail notification should get triggered to the language team for translation.

  3. There should be "someone" (a team maybe) who should be responsible to read the reason given for translation and make the informed decision about it (translation is really required or not).

Questions -

Who are "we" in the first step of the process you mentioned?
Who are responsible for getting the content into the docs.fp.o ?

I can talk to the specific person you mentioned once we decide on the final process.
For locating the place in docs.ffp.o, I think the content should go to the project to which it belongs to.

@amsharma

I would like to propose a slight shift in this process -

We have two main platforms of communication - commblog and magazine, whenever writers are pushing their content to either of these two, they should have two questions popped up -
- Do you want your content to be translated in multi-lingual?
- Why do you think it should be translated?

Neither of these platforms are, aiui, multi-lingual. How is this translation going to happen? Why would anyone ever NOT want this translated, if translations are something we are doing here.

When you started this issue I thought you wanted specific content translated because it was super-critical, not just all content which I think is outside of hte scope and capacity of hte project.

Depending on the choice of the author, a mail notification should get triggered to the language team for translation.

There should be "someone" (a team maybe) who should be responsible to read the reason given for translation and make the informed decision about it (translation is really required or not).

Questions -
Who are "we" in the first step of the process you mentioned?

The D&I team because you are proposing this should be part of this teams function.

Who are responsible for getting the content into the docs.fp.o ?

The D&I team because you are proposing this should be part of this teams function.

I can talk to the specific person you mentioned once we decide on the final process.
For locating the place in docs.ffp.o, I think the content should go to the project to which it belongs to.

agreed - but this team will need to submit the PR if they identify the content.

ok, we need to define clearly what kind of content we want to translate and how we are deciding to choose the one to go through the process.
Should that be done using voting process within the diversity team and have a ticket opened in diversity repo every-time we identify an article or content to be translated OR that needs to have an agreement with translation team as well?

As discussed in meeting today -
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FgLp-m-Akts1_d4oShJtbZe23X60PqUnvA8rGdp7uSs/edit?usp=sharing

We will follow this process to start with to identify an article to be translated -
Using DI repo, open a translation ticket
Having tag/label for ticket
Lazy approval should be enough

I will update the final process and checkin to our doc site and start with our first translation ticket soon.

+1 to the process discussed in the meeting.

I am nitpicking here but @amsharma when you update the docs site, can you please add that the new ticket MUST have the following details :

  1. Link to the article to be translated

  2. Languages to be translated to

  3. Has the author of the content already agreed to the translation? (YES/ NO) with relevant link to discussion/ tag the author.
    This MUST be YES for document to be approved for translation.

  4. Reason why it is important to translate this article (a few words are fine too)

Thanks @bee2502 . This is the process defined here - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_5aB1trQ-ZGT2h4Qgmw2x7W7Y5IOOaUAhdbS_Y8N17Q/edit?usp=sharing

@jibecfed It will be great if you can please check this process from the translation team prospective and share your opinion. Thanks.

Mail sent to trans@lists.fedoraproject.org for process review.

Metadata Update from @amsharma:
- Issue assigned to amsharma

9 months ago

Metadata Update from @amsharma:
- Issue priority set to: needs review (was: awaiting triage)

9 months ago

Hello, thank you for this will to have multi-lingual content (and communicating with us through #fedora-i18n and trans mailing list)! I personally think translation are important for technology inclusion.

I'm a little bit confuse about what publication system we are talking about.
If it is documentation, it will be include in the doc translation system, and you won't have to do anything to allow it :)

If it is article publication on community blog or community magazine, I suggest to change the way to answer the issue:
everything should be translatable by any team,
diversity group decide the priorities or release criteria and communicate it to translations teams.

In any way, there is no reasons to ask an author about whether should translate or not the content as it falls under the Fedora contributor agreement, all we do and publish is under an open license.

And there is no need to justify why you want an article to be translated in one language. You may just say: we would love to see in translate at least in lang1, lang2, lang3, and if the teams can do it, they will. If other teams also can, it's good also.

To make everything translatable by any team means changing our tools, and I suggest to have a look at hugo: https://jibecfed.fedorapeople.org/blog-hugo/en/2018/11/building-a-multilingual-static-website-with-hugo/

But changing our tooling is a big work. By then, just tell us where to drop the files (opening an issue with a translated file will be fine) and what's the process.

Thanks for your response @jibecfed . This is really helpful.
So...it means if we get the content (which we want to see in different languages), we just need to get that content in the Fedora doc site and it will be translated by doc translation system without doing anything extra? If that is the case then the things are pretty simple from now on.. Please confirm. Thanks.

Sorry for this late arrival, I was not aware of this thread. Here is some minor feedback from me, a foreigner who sometimes suffers from the problems described here.

  1. Please avoid automatic translation tools. While I know there are some pairs of languages where they work fine I also know pairs where it works poorly and even cases where the automatic translations are totally unusable.
  2. A person quoted in the original post did not say that he can't understand the commented article because he could not speak English. He emphasized he usually understood English but that particular article was too difficult. (While at this: if it was too difficult for a human it would be totally impossible to process by an automatic tool.) I think this message should be said to the authors: please make sure that you don't use overly complex English phrases. I believe it is easy to foreigners to distinguish which phrases are too complex and which are not. For the native English speakers, ask yourself these questions: Can you speak any foreign language? Are you able to translate your article to that foreign language? Would you find it difficult? Would you be able to understand a similar article written in that foreign language?
  3. Proofreading of English texts written by foreigners has been mentioned here as well. I think it is a separate issue but important as well.

I am sorry for my poor English and thank you @amsharma for raising the subject.

@rluzynski Thanks for your valuable insight and I strongly agree with your second point.

I would like to explore the ideas where we can incorporate these guidelines for the writers.

Flock summary - 2019-08-10

To summarize the discussion we had at the D&I hackfest at Flock with @jibecfed and @rluzynski, here are the action items we walked away with:

  1. Better collaboration with the i18n/l10n mailing lists since this is where their community is
  2. Better engagement with the Council on how to identify important announcements and put them in a Pagure repo for the i18n/l10n teams to translate with the existing workflows

I will try to add more context here soon, wanted to get this in while it was fresh.

@jflory7 hey, do you think we can put this procedure on "howto" at our docs - https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/diversity-inclusion/ ?

@amsharma I don't follow, what process are you referring to?

She may refers to the collaboration with l10n team to allow translation of announcements.

What I can easily provide:

  • A website where to commit your text, I'll convert it and publish it to https://translate.fedoraproject.org
  • Automatically, translations will arrive and you'll be able to reuse it, it wherever place you publish announcement (it requires here you to have a publication tool with i18n support)

What is done regarding docs' i18n:

So, anything you publish in the documentation system will be available for translation in the future. You'll only have to send an email to the translator mailing list with telling us that you want a specific content to be translated for a particular deadline/event.

If you don't send email, translators will just do what they feel like.

Reminder on terms:

i18n: internationalization, the ability for the tool to support multiple languages
l10n: localization, the translation activity

@jibecfed Thanks, this is helpful info!

Does the l10n team have their own docs site/repo? Or do you think hosting this kind of information in D&I docs makes sense? It should be accessible to the people who would need to change it most often.

If we talk about the docs workflow:

Fedora D&I documentation is there: https://pagure.io/fedora-diversity
The translations lands there: https://pagure.io/fedora-docs-l10n/diversity-inclusion
Translated content goes there: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/diversity-inclusion/

So, if using docs automation makes sense to you, then including translations in your repository is not required.

If you want to publish localized content outside of the Fedora documentation system, then yes, storing translations in your repository will make sense.

@jibecfed Sorry, let me ask a different way. Does the l10n team have documentation for processes on contributing or requesting translations? I am wondering if we write docs about the process you explained in the above comment, where we should publish them (in any language). :)

@amsharma I don't follow, what process are you referring to?

processes on contributing or requesting translations.

@jibecfed and I had a conversation in #fedora-docs about this ticket and contributing to localization efforts. I pointed him at the Join SIG and @ankursinha as the best place to focus on bringing in new contributors since the process for docs translations is automated. I'm closing this ticket as out of scope since I don't think there is much for the D&I Team to help with.

Chat logs are below:

[16:57:13] <jibec> jwf let's go for IRC ping pong ?
[16:57:19] * jwf waves
[16:57:24] <jwf> jibec: Yeah, probably faster :)
[16:57:42] <jwf> Did you see my last reply?
[16:57:46] <jibec> yep
[16:57:54] <jwf> context for other folks: https://pagure.io/fedora-diversity/issue/97#comment-628478
[16:58:00] <jibec> You said: does the l10n team have documentation for processes on contributing or requesting translations?
[16:58:19] <jibec> contributing to l10n is really easy: just log in to translate.fedoraproject.org/
[16:58:32] <jibec> and start working
[16:58:49] <jwf> Is this written down anywhere publicly?
[16:58:58] <jwf> Pretend I just started contributing to Fedora yesterday :)
[16:59:36] <jibec> well, I'm not sure, but I see newcomers on the platform, so.. I assume it's not too bad :p
[17:00:10] <jibec> (you can see them too: https://translate.fedoraproject.org/changes/?project=&lang=&action=45 )
[17:00:47] <jibec> but true, I could update this page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N
[17:01:47] <jwf> This is all new to me since Zanata was axed. :) Looks cool!
[17:01:55] <jwf> Updating the wiki page is a great idea
[17:02:32] <jwf> What I want to get down somewhere is what you explained here: https://pagure.io/fedora-diversity/issue/97#comment-628414
[17:02:47] <jwf> When people ask me about translating or how to get something translated in Fedora, I'd like to point them somewhere
[17:03:12] <jwf> I was trying to understand if it made sense for the D&I team to write this on our docs site, or if l10n has something like a docs repo for contributing to their team
[17:03:21] <jwf> Wiki page could work too
[17:06:47] <jibec> (wiki page is now udpated)
[17:07:54] <jibec> to keep it simple, wiki page is the best place
[17:08:31] <jibec> but the Pagure issue we were discussing about, is not on this subject
[17:08:49] <jwf> Cool, that works for me! jibec++
[17:08:50] <zodbot> jwf: Karma for jibecfed changed to 5 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
[17:09:11] <jibec> \o/ cookies
[17:09:22] <jwf> jibec: I guess I am a little confused on how to move that Pagure issue forward. I was thinking of it as a process docs ticket, but I am wondering what you are thinking as "close criteria" on that ticket
[17:12:03] <jibec> well, if the proposed system suits you, then you can close it as fixed
[17:12:54] <jibec> but nobody really care about the closing status, what matter is the comment that goes with it
[17:18:00] <jwf> jibec: I think what I would like to see somewhere to link to how someone requests a translatable version of a docs repo
[17:18:24] <jibec> you can't request it
[17:18:37] <jibec> all of them will be translatable
[17:19:00] <jwf> Oh! So any docs repo will always end up with a repo like https://pagure.io/fedora-docs-l10n/<name> ?
[17:19:10] <jibec> yes
[17:19:16] <jwf> Oh cool. I didn't realize that.
[17:19:24] <jwf> Is that written anywhere on the L10N wiki?
[17:19:28] <jibec> but "<name>" match the publication URL, not the source repository
[17:19:40] <jwf> Oh good to know, I wouldn't have guessed that
[17:19:49] <jwf> I was wondering about namespace collisions
[17:21:36] <jibec> you can find this on the wiki: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jibecfed/fedoradoc-antora-localization
[17:21:59] <jibec> but the real challenge for now is this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N_Move_to_Weblate
[17:23:09] <jibec> the documentation system is nearly done, only automation is an issue
[17:30:07] <jwf> Okay I went through the wiki pages. I see there is a lot of ongoing work already!
[17:30:24] <jwf> jibec: Is there anything you think the D&I team can do to support you in this work?
[17:47:47] <jibec> I don't think so
[17:48:26] <jibec> jwf: for now, there isn't much that can be done
[17:49:09] <jibec> I'm stuck by too complex infrastructure
[17:49:55] <jibec> and I don't really know how to get new "advanced" contributors
[17:50:32] <jibec> I have to go, we'll have oportunity to talk in the future
[17:50:34] <jibec> see you jwf
[08:00:52] <jwf> jibec: I logged off last night, no worries. I think when you are ready to focus on outreach to new contributors, the Join SIG in #fedora-join is best equipped to help you think on those things
[08:01:06] <jwf> The Join SIG is doing excellent work these days to pair new contributors with mentors in the community
[08:01:15] <jwf> But I don't know how well-represented l10n work is there
[08:01:23] <jwf> FranciscoD is probably a good person to ask

Metadata Update from @jflory7:
- Issue close_status updated to: out of scope
- Issue status updated to: Closed (was: Open)

3 days ago

Thanks @jflory7 for the follow-up. I agree with you for closing this one. :smile:

Just a side note - Though I trust your decision making powers :smile: but, It would be nice to ask the ticket reporting person who opened the ticket before closing it :laughing:

Login to comment on this ticket.

Metadata