#142 Request for changes to FPG
Closed: Fixed None Opened 9 years ago by johannbg.

I have started to look into the "feature" which would make systemd-journal the default syslog someday and when doing some research I could not find any section in FPG regarding logging and log files which explains why it's such a mess ( only 3 package seem to "Require" rsyslog when in fact most likely they should be at least equal to the amount of service/daemons in the project? ) thus I have written up a draft [1] which hopefully we can make futureproof for logfiles and logging in the project.

Anyway for systemd-journal being able ( or any other syslog solution for that matter ) to become the default syslog solution we have to clean up a bit things as they are now and to do so we need proper guidelines and then proceed to major fixup from the looks of it.

Please review discuss etc...


You can just close this ticket since rsyslog wont be removed from core thus it makes no sense for you guys to wasted your time on this at least I wont be wasting my time in trying to fix this since the intent is clear to keep things as broken as they are...

I will be pushing for systemd journal to become the default syslog in F18 which does not require this cleanup to happen.

I myself was just being overly anal about this happening at the same time since I have noticed that features often lack proper cleanup that arguably should happen at the same time as they are introduced.

Anywho you guys probably want to discuss this anyway to get that part over with to be able to make the necessary changes to the FPG if/when someone creates an separate log cleanup feature for the projects.

Most likely that feature should be combined with packaging preset feature since you are more or less dealing with the same components which would only require for the necessary spec file changes to be done once as opposed to be done twice,which is what I was planning to do if I had been approved as an PP by FESCO ( allthou I did not request to become PP myself it still made the most logical sense to combine those two for the work that I was faced with having to do for the preset feature if I had become one).

Based on the experience how difficult it has been to get unit packaged and given that we are dealing with more or less the same components both this cleanup and the packaging preset feature probably need 50% - 75% participation from PP to get done.

This ticket is tabled until there is a change of the default syslog mechanism. Please reopen at that time.

Reopening since persistancy has been enabled by default from systemd 198-1


Please review and vote upon proposal

We broke this into two parts:

1) https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Spot/Packaging/LogFiles

Which was approved (+1:6, 0:0, -1:0)

2) The FPC defers on the second part (subpackaging options for rsyslog) until rsyslog is no longer installed by default in Fedora.

Replying to [comment:5 spot]:

We broke this into two parts:

1) https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Spot/Packaging/LogFiles

Which was approved (+1:6, 0:0, -1:0)

2) The FPC defers on the second part (subpackaging options for rsyslog) until rsyslog is no longer installed by default in Fedora.

Seriously guys?

Why in earth did you defer it ?
Why not decide already how to handle this then just enact the god dam thing and this is not just about rsyslog this is about syslog-ng you know both log solution beside the now enabled journal

Closing out this old ticket, please reopen if rsyslog stops being the default.

Re-opening since this still needs to be resolved regardless if rsyslog or syslog-ng is the default for that matter.

Since we now have an approved guideline that addresses part of the logfile question, We were unclear what changes to the current guideline are being proposed. Could you provide us with a draft of the modifications to the current guidelines?

What kind of nonsense is this I've wait for what 2 years now to this being properly dealt with by this commit what is this Debian?.

We need to sub package rsyslog,syslog-ng and logwatch for service daemon components since we default to journal now I was planning on us being done fixing this before that happen but hey let's needless stall things for people in the distribution.

Announcement text:

A section has been added on log files and logrotate: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Log_Files

Did you write this based on my proposal which explicitly states that...

"If an package is going to provide additional optional syslog support then they must be placed into a separate $name-<syslogging option> subpackage as in $name-rsyslog or $name-syslog-ng "

Which would have log files package in sub package which would have a virtual requirement or did you base this on Tom's shorter version?

The fact is in these three years that this has been stuck in the FPC bottleneck, upstream has changed.

Syslog-ng [1] ( section 6.12 ) reads directly from a journal files now by default so no log files are configured and I do believe the recent version of rsyslog does that as well.

So apparently FPC has not looked upstream to see what has happened there but blindly put stuff in the guidelines they know nothing about.

The proper course of action here is to have every component sub-package their log file ( as I had mentioned 3 years ago ) along with any kind of required configuration changes to the daemon/service that might be required to have those daemon/service log it's output to text files and have both syslog-ng and rsyslog read those journal files by default while at the same time allow the option for those that still require text files to install a sub component that set's that up for them.

As far as I know the baseWG does not install ryslog neither does the workstation WG unsure about the cloudWG but server WG still ships rsyslog so arguably the guidelines should reflect that ( no component log to text files by default but that stuff be put in sub component )

  1. http://www.balabit.com/sites/default/files/documents/syslog-ng-ose-3.6-guides/en/syslog-ng-ose-guide-admin/pdf/syslog-ng-ose-guide-admin.pdf

Jóhann, I think that adding those subpackages, while technically a proper thing, would be a waste of time. We are much better served by updating remaining packages to use the journal, and turning off their custom logging services, than by improving their syslog integration.


Option a)

Patch everything to drop custom logging and use the journal only

Option b)

Patch everything to provide custom logging via sub-package and provide the option to administrators and the tools that might require, to continue to use textual logging in conjunction with the journal after configuring rsyslog and syslog-ng to do so.

Neither option a or b is for us or fpc to decide but FESCo.

Once FESCo has provided the answer to that, the packaging guidelines can be changed accordingly and all components ( 600+ ) updated to reflect that decision.

BTW it's the same amount of work...

If this had been properly dealt with by FPC 3 years ago I could have been done creating those sub-packages since I was going through those components anyway which would have helped since option b will be the outcome from FESCo.

Reopening since this is non satisfying result. After those three years that took to go through this upstream syslogger ( rsyslog,syslog-ng ) are now reading themselves directly from the journal.

so packaging textual log files in separated sub package which depends on a virtual provide of some sort so either syslog-ng or rsyslog could be used along with log rotation which is required for those ( yes the implementation of those is broken ).

Then there is the issue what's supposed to be done with logwatch script which if I can recall correctly only existed for <100 components out of those 600+ service/daemon we ship so probably all of that textual log setup should be shipped in an textual log file sub package for those components that ship daemon service.

Note there is also lacking dependency on logrotate in the guidelines

If someone wishes to file a separate draft, I encourage them to do so.

Or just work on the draft I have submitted

"2) The FPC defers on the second part (subpackaging options for rsyslog) until rsyslog is no longer installed by default in Fedora. "

Workstation WG does not install rsyslog by default.

Metadata Update from @tibbs:
- Issue assigned to tibbs

4 years ago

Login to comment on this ticket.