= phenomenon = Currently in Fedora for languages with non-Latin scripts we normally switch between a xkb layout as an input source for inputting Latin/ASCII characters and an IME for inputting native characters.
ibus-kkc and ibus-libpinyin both have Latin ("English") input methods. I think it is more natural for primary users of these IMEs to use them by default for Latin character input. So I want to suggest that for F21 we could default Japanese input to use only the kkc IME and Chinese to libpinyin IME, ie no additional keyboard layout source would be needed. Multilingual users might still need an additional keyboard layout input source and that is still fine. Other IMEs might also be extended to support Latin input modes in the future: initially we could do it for those default IMEs that support it.
For example I am already using ibus-kkc for both Latin and Japanese input and it works well - I toggle easily between direct and ja input.
Perhaps the only change needed for the current IMEs with Latin mode might be input mode state caching, ie using the same mode as last time.
Yeah, If Default IME's for langugae are capable of supporting latin input without any major problem. No need to keep XKB Latin ime enable on desktop.
might be improved in the future but one advantage to support this so far is, it would be faster to take effects. super+space on gnome-shell often takes some time to apply. just a note.
I try to summarize high level ideas from the discussions in the meetings so far:
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2013-09-26/i18n.2013-09-26-06.05.log.html
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2013-10-03/i18n.2013-10-03-06.01.log.html
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2013-10-10/i18n.2013-10-10-06.04.log.html
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2013-10-23/i18n.2013-10-23-06.02.log.html#l-23
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2013-10-30/i18n.2013-10-30-06.01.log.html#l-49
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2013-11-06/i18n.2013-11-06-06.03.log.html#l-95
Okay summarizing the previous discussions a bit:
== Goals - simpler UI - performance: faster switching within IME - more systematic layout handling
== IME layout/maps - keyboard layouts separate from maps and IMEs - xkb too much on the same level as IMEs - should use meta-data about ascii/latin compatible xkb layouts (like langtable provides) to limit choices of layouts for IMEs - input framework (or IMEs?) should provide UI for configuring keyboard map per IME - support for custom layouts
== Switching - generically layout switching only makes sense for certain specific cases: 1. switching between different physical keyboards 2. switching between keymaps compatible with a particular keyboard layout - maybe only define IME mode switching hotkey by default perhaps - could use "Super+space" for mode switching with single source - for IMEs defaulting to Latin input, keyboard layout source is normally redundant - default to Latin if no other input sources defined (for Workstations) - ibus switching uses XI2 and anthy mode switching uses gdk keybinding which also works in nested VM box
== IME Latin - most IMEs providing non-Latin input should also have a Latin mode - will hangul IME support Latin mode? - need panel status icon to show IME input mode - mobile IMEs also tend to use mode switching - framework support for IME mode switching - each ibus engine can inherit IBusEngineSimple for Latin mode
== UI defaults - default IME mode may depend on whether there is a keyboard input source or not - only default IMEs to Latin for new users without a keyboard source (migration hard to do) - preserve IME input mode state across sessions: http://code.google.com/p/ibus/issues/detail?id=1662 - current keyboard source should not determine layout used by IME - if there is ambiguity IME label could show the configured layout: eg "kkc (JP)" vs "kkc (US)" - gnome-shell - need discussion with Gnome people about the design and UI experience - indicator should expand IME mode submenu by default, and be placed above IME list - gnome-shell grabs Super-Space: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=703779 - only show switcher when more than two input sources
After more discussions and consideration we may make this into a F21 Change proposal.
It will help to get more view on this topic from fedora-devel list.
I will try to open up some discussions on this soon.
After more direct discussions we came to the conclusion that currently Latin mode (direct input) seems specific to Japanese IMEs alas. Going with that reduces the potential scope of this proposal somewhat, and might mean losing the display of IME input mode in the ibus applet.
= Revised Summary without Latin mode
== Goals - simpler UI - more systematic layout handling
== IME layout/maps - keyboard layouts should be lower level than maps and IMEs - currently xkb too much on the same level as IMEs - should use meta-data about ascii/latin compatible xkb layouts (like langtable provides) to limit choices of layouts for IMEs - input framework (or IMEs?) should provide UI for configuring keyboard map per IME
== Switching - generically layout switching only makes sense for certain specific cases: 1. switching between different physical keyboards 2. switching between keymaps compatible with a particular keyboard layout - ibus switching shortcut uses XI2 and anthy mode switching shortcut uses gdk keybinding which also works in nested VM
== IME modes - might be nice if libpinyin provided a direct input Latin mode - still seems attractive to default Japanese to use IME only and default to Latin mode - RFE: option to show IME input mode in applet - framework support for IME modes and switching - ibus engines that don't provide Latin input can inherit IBusEngineSimple for Latin mode
== UI defaults - ? preserve IME input mode state across sessions: http://code.google.com/p/ibus/issues/detail?id=1662 - current keyboard source should not determine layout when switching into an IME - if there is ambiguity IME label could show the configured layout: eg "kkc (JP)" vs "kkc (US)" - gnome-shell - need discussion with Gnome people about the design and UI experience - indicator should expand IME mode submenu by default, and be placed above IME list - gnome-shell grabs Super-Space: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=703779 - only show switcher when more than two input sources
We discussed some of this last week:
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-05/i18n.2014-02-05-06.01.log.html#l-82
more consistent handling for switching between xkb and IME Input Sources
gnome-shell issues
Replying to [comment:14 petersen]:
indicator should expand IME mode submenu by default, and and be placed above IME list
and be placed above IME list
I filed https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725708 for this part (and also mentioned about expanding the Input Mode submenu by default but that might require ibus changes too?).
In [http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-03-05/i18n.2014-03-05-06.02.log.html#l-40 2014-03-05] i18n meeting we agreed to close this issue deferred (so we can re-visit the xkb layout classification later), after I file bugs in Fedora against IMEs to improve their input mode menus. Need to do some testing first in Rawhide to check on status quo.
Discussed again in 2014-06-25 meeting.
Jens will do some testing in F21 Rawhide while talking to IME maintainers and open bugs.
Maybe also compare the gnome and non-gnome IMEs menus.
2014-07-02 meeting
Closing this out since the major topics have been covered and cleared. More work will proceed and come from this discussion.
I filed https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1116676 for the xkb geometry/layout "R&D" analysis RFE.
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