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Depending on how we organise different languages, we need to decide how to organise topics---how do we use sub-categories and/or tags?
Once we decide on this, we move to the next step to decide what tags/sub-categories we should set up initially. @hhlp has collected some metrics on tags in #141 in this csv: https://hhlp.fedorapeople.org/Discourse-Tags-Final.csv
we can have something like this :
as describe @ankursinha open this skell in any language in ticket #142
Regards.,
we can have something like this : Announcements Tips WorkStation Server Atomic SilverBlue Spin as describe @ankursinha open this skell in any language in ticket #142 Regards.,
Announcements Tips WorkStation Server Atomic SilverBlue Spin
as describe @ankursinha open this skell in any language in ticket #142 Regards.,
+1
I'm wondering if we should make them more general with sub-categories? How about these?
On installation and setting up:
Then, on using Fedora, we have:
then, lastly we have:
What do you think?
Please note that, as far as I can understand, the last release of Atomic Host will be F29. From Rawhide on out, the efforts will focus on Fedora CoreOS. https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/atomic@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/LRDGSB2HNOY57J52GQNNK5QBND26O76W/
This is just to say that maybe we should use another category name in place of "Atomic". Maybe more generic? Like "containers"?
Please note that, as far as I can understand, the last release of Atomic Host will be F29. From Rawhide on out, the efforts will focus on Fedora CoreOS. https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/atomic@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/LRDGSB2HNOY57J52GQNNK5QBND26O76W/ This is just to say that maybe we should use another category name in place of "Atomic". Maybe more generic? Like "containers"?
+1 I'll update my comment above.
I'm personally prefer tags to multiple level of categories. I don't know how discourse works, but if the user needs to browse through categories/sub-categories to find the right place, it makes asking questions a bit harder. And we should expect many to put a question in a wrong category, specially if they are granular.
Finally, a question might be about multiple categories, or the category might not be that clear.
I agree with a few general categories (although I wonder if not having categories is really bad!), but having many categories & sub-categories is probably not that user-friendly.
+1 for both comment
but keep in mind that we have only 2 levels to play with it and no more :
The thread will be like this -> with proper Desciption :
The limit tag for Topic is -> 5
@hedayat I think my comment resolved your Issue
+1 for both comment but keep in mind that we have only 2 levels to play with it and no more : The first levevel or Category in Discourse is the Language (English, Spanish... etc) The second level or sub-category call in Discourse (child-category) associated to a Category.
+1 for both comment but keep in mind that we have only 2 levels to play with it and no more :
The first levevel or Category in Discourse is the Language (English, Spanish... etc) The second level or sub-category call in Discourse (child-category) associated to a Category.
No, no, that's not how it is. The first level is the category---each category in different languages:
Members that join the language groups will see the associated categories. So we're not wasting a category level on languages.
I'm personally prefer tags to multiple level of categories. I don't know how discourse works, but if the user needs to browse through categories/sub-categories to find the right place, it makes asking questions a bit harder. And we should expect many to put a question in a wrong category, specially if they are granular. Finally, a question might be about multiple categories, or the category might not be that clear. I agree with a few general categories (although I wonder if not having categories is really bad!), but having many categories & sub-categories is probably not that user-friendly.
OK, sure. I'm not in favour of any categories at all---it makes it very hard for people to search for information based on tags (which as we see from AskFedora, users create on the fly---and not good tags too). How about we limit it to one level only with only the necessary categories?
The other metadata can be provided using tags?
This leaves sub-categories open as an option if we feel like we need a little more organisation in the future.
Let's see this in action :
Alternative 1 :
<img alt="Captura_de_pantalla_de_2019-02-16_18-30-11.png" src="/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/raw/files/c39918aa40299470f4add7be42d00d1ba094312f95e8b4625359beb887773a58-Captura_de_pantalla_de_2019-02-16_18-30-11.png" />
You can see Category (Language) , Category (Chlid-Category) associated to each category and inside of all of this topic with tag's.
Note : we're not wating categories, we are open any language that we want and we're not wasting sub-categories, this provide the posibility to expand in the future...
Alternative 2 :
Announcements (English) Announcements (French) Desktops (English) Desktops (French) Labs (English) Labs (French) Server (English) Server (French) Containers (English) Containers (French) ... .... ..... and so on,
This option is very confusing to me...
Leave creating tag's on the fly, involve a task force to keep clean, and waisting time to keep clean instead of keeping the focus in moderating the site, tag must be restrited and allow at any kind of trust level to creted it, example Trust Level 4...
Tag's is for Topic in Discourse an give this name to Describe a Question and it's comments or answer's, Tag's is used to helps to describe a TOPIC.
Let's see this in action : Alternative 1 : <img alt="Captura_de_pantalla_de_2019-02-16_18-30-11.png" src="/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/raw/files/c39918aa40299470f4add7be42d00d1ba094312f95e8b4625359beb887773a58-Captura_de_pantalla_de_2019-02-16_18-30-11.png" /> You can see Category (Language) , Category (Chlid-Category) associated to each category and inside of all of this topic with tag's. Note : we're not wating categories, we are open any language that we want and we're not wasting sub-categories, this provide the posibility to expand in the future...
What I mean is that we cannot add another level in the future, since the discourse "sub category" level is being mapped to our "categories" (Desktops or whatever). So if in the future, we see the need to subcategories Desktops into Silverblue/Gnome/KDE for example, we will not be able to do so.
Alternative 2 : Announcements (English) Announcements (French) Desktops (English) Desktops (French) Labs (English) Labs (French) Server (English) Server (French) Containers (English) Containers (French) ... .... ..... and so on, This option is very confusing to me...
But here, if you pick Spanish as your langauge (and join the spanish language group), you will not see English or other language categories in your view at all---isn't that nicer? All you'll see is:
Please read this link that I've given in #142: https://meta.discourse.org/t/best-practice-to-managing-a-multi-language-community/34664/4
Please ping me over IRC/telegram if this is not clear. We're now going in circles and hijacking tickets :(
PS: @hhlp I thought you understood the alternative as you'd commented here: https://pagure.io/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/142#comment-553535
I'll set this up now so you can test it out. Until we make the instance public, we can play with it a bit :)
@hhlp: I've set up an English group now, and a Spanish group, and I've created Announcements (English) and Announcements (Spanish) categories to start with. As you'll see from the settings of the categories, only members of the English group can see/post/edit in the English category, and only members of the Spanish group have access to the Spanish categories. (SInce we're admins, we can see all categories even if we aren't in the language groups. I thought there was a "view as" option somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment.)
Also, the category will not be "Announcements (Spanish)", we'll use the Spanish word for "Announcements" to improve the user experience.
How does this feel?
@hhlp : let's discuss it with everyone on Tuesday at the meeting and proceed there? In the meantime, we can finalise the categories here?
Metadata Update from @ankursinha: - Issue tagged with: S: Next-meeting
So, for categories we have:
Language independent (these wont be per language):
Per language:
Should the "community" category be per language or not? That's for folks to ask questions about the community.
@hhlp @ankursinha Thanks for your comments, I agree with a few categories if their boundaries are clear enough. And I also think that creating new tags should not be possible by everyone. Even for trusted users, there might need to be some rules (or patterns) for a number of similar tags.
But, thinking again about even those few categories, I'm still not sure if it is always clear to which category a question belongs. For example, where will you put a question about some usage of DNF? For example removing duplicate packages? I think it doesn't belong to neither Desktop nor Server categories. It is about the distribution and is not specific to any flavors of it. Actually, I don't find any proper category for it in your examples. But, yet another category might fix this. (But still, a user of Fedora Desktop spins might think that it might be asked in Desktop category).
It is near impossible to have categories to fit each question. The categories that we're trying to set up are minimum, and simple enough for users to choose from. If we make them too fine-grained, they'll confuse users IMO.
The tags bit can be looked into---I think we can limit how many tags to add, and there may be a way of limiting new tags to users at higher trust levels too.
+1 for way 2, seems to be more easy for the final user
Based on our discussion, these are the categories I propose we keep. They are general enough to permit some organisation while limiting overlap. For further organisation, we shall permit a limited number of tags.
These are top level categories visible to all language speakers:
These will only be visible to users of the related language group. Users are free to join as many language groups as they wish. The expectation is that most users will either use one primary language or two, so the nubmer of categories they see will remain within reasonable limits.
Please note that mods and admins will see all categories.
When a user logs in for the first time, they will only see the language independent categories. A "how to use this site" sticky post will inform them how to join the language specific groups they need.
Users can leave and join language groups as they please.
Plesae vote with +1/-1 on this. If by Friday we have sufficient +1s, I will start working on making these categories and groups.
I'm really sorry, but I still don't get where the question about DNF will go. Or "Installation" issues of Server & Desktop will most probably have overlap (it is Anaconda after all). And also, the "Updating & upgrading" section will have some overlap I guess.
Question for level 1: what system is the user using? If it's a desktop, it goes there, if a server, it goes there, and so on.
Question for level 2: what is the user doing? If they're updating a package and experience issues, they go in updating. If they're having issues installing a package, it can go in usage or setup and so on.
The "dnf" bit or the "anaconda" bit--the tool---can come under tags.
In general, categorisation either happens over nouns or verbs. So, here, we're sort of using nouns in the first level (the "what are you using", and then the verbs in the second level the "what are you doing"? Does that make sense?
It is quite impossible to come up with a categorisation where no overlapping will occur. Even if we did do it somehow, users will pick their categories and tags as per their own interpretation. The goal here is to have some organisational method to make the site easier to use, not to have a strict categorisation for say detailed data analysis.
Does that seem OK?
I'm sorry too, but what about IoT, ARM or Cloud related questions?
Question for level 1: what system is the user using? If it's a desktop, it goes there, if a server, it goes there, and so on. Question for level 2: what is the user doing? If they're updating a package and experience issues, they go in updating. If they're having issues installing a package, it can go in usage or setup and so on.
This make sense. Got it.
I'm really sorry, but I still don't get where the question about DNF will go. Or "Installation" issues of Server & Desktop will most probably have overlap (it is Anaconda after all). And also, the "Updating & upgrading" section will have some overlap I guess. I'm sorry too, but what about IoT, ARM or Cloud related questions?
We can always add an "Other" category for other use cases that do not fall into these.
Our main target audience at the moment is based on the three editions. IoT may be cool, but it is a long way from being our main userbase, right?
ARM is hardware---if a user is running a desktop on ARM, it'll go under desktop and so on.
I was under the impression that "Cloud" goes under "Containers". Is that not the case?
I would very much appreciate if along with the questions, some suggestions are also made---otherwise I'm having to ask for information and then devise new ideas here. Please propose improvements to these categories if you feel there are major sections of our current target audience not being covered
If we can list all the general products we have, they will be level 1:
and the same 3 verb based sub-categories will repeat under each? New categories can, of course, always be added later if we observe an increase in questions about a certain use-case/product.
How does that sound?
Note: I'm just talking about per-language categories.
I have another suggestion. Note that I'm trying to present the idea, so the categories are not final and needs to be figured out.
The main idea is to present main use cases as top level categories, and add sub-categories if needed. The reason is that IMHO, the main differences are in the use cases rather than the products: e.g. the installation of Fedora Workstation is completely different in ARM than x86, but the installation process of all live images are mostly similar, and also the installation of install media, which is mainly the Server edition but can be other spins or even non-official images.
Example:
Setup (Install & Configuration): -> General -> Live media -> Install media -> ARM -> Silverblue (? I don't know if it has different installation method) -> IoT -> Cloud (?)
Usage: -> Gnome -> KDE -> Other Graphical Desktop environments -> Shell/Terminal/CLI -> Desktop Applications (e.g. Libreoffice/Firefox/...) -> Server applications (e.g. DB, ...) -> Other(?)
Update & Upgrade: -> General -> Silverblue -> ARM -> Containers(?) -> Fedora CoreOS -> Applications (issues with upgrading applications rather than the distro, e.g. Gnome etc...)
So instead of nouns as level 1 and verbs as level 2, we do verbs as level 1 and nouns as level 2? Sure thatll work too. (Gnome > installation and Installation > Gnome each provide us with the same 2 levels of organisation but in different order)
I had put the nouns as level 1 so that community members have level 1 categories to focus on since the community seems to be divided based on nouns rather than verbs in general (a subgroup works on "Gnome (installation, usage, updating)" or KDE "(installation, usage, updating)" instead of "installing Fedora (using KDE, using Gnome etc)" and "using Fedora (Gnome, Kde)"). Does that sound OK? So, in this new way, a workstation contributor has to click more to go from workstation installation to workstation usage, for example.
I know that the categories you suggest arent final so this may not apply: we're trying not to give more or less focus to the different DEs, so if possible I'd like to avoid "Gnome, Kde, other". I suggest we either provide subcategories for all of them, or none of them to ensure they are all treated equally---theres always some talk of how DE1 is being given more importance than the others and it doesnt please community members that work on other DEs :(
@hedayat I thought about this more and I also think putting verbs as level 1 as you've suggested is nicer. Here's the complete analysis (if you can call it that :laughing: )
We primarily have 2 use cases:
Jane will experience an issue when trying to do something (action/verb) with her particular Fedora variant (noun). So, we want the forum to ask Jane these two questions:
Jane should easily know the answer to these questions, so the order in which they are asked does not matter to Jane.
As most community members, Tom will have a few areas on which Tom focusses their contribution. When Tom goes to the forum, Tom wants to quickly find questions related to their focus area. So, it'll be useful to have level 1 correlate with the various focus areas (SIGs/Teams) in the Fedora community.
For a general Fedora user, Meg, the Fedora lifecycle in general is:
Now some observations:
We have a sub-community that works on Anaconda and installation.
While different variants will have different ways of doing so, in general, installation is based on standard community provided software (either dnf or a UI that uses dnf, whatever Silverblue uses, Flatpak etc ). I'm sure many users will think of "installing a printer" or "using a docker image" as daily usage too, so there's some overlap with the next category here.
All these variants have Fedora sub teams that work on them.
dnf system-upgrade
We do have a team of people that work on upgrades.
So, this leads to the categories and sub categories:
dnf
If you read through it all: how does that sound?
These are only thoughts. Having many categories is a bad thing, this is absolutely true. BTW comment 554931 make sense.
+1 for this aproval :
The only Question come to my mind is what about is a user want to join into two diferent group example : English and their language, who they can see the structure of the site?
The default view in Discourse is latest posts. So Jane will see the posts from whatever categories they have access to. Users can join as many language groups as they please. So, if Jane joins language-english and language-spanish groups, for example, when they go to the categories tab, this is what they will se
language-english
language-spanish
and when they click on the category, they'll see all the subcategories.
[...] If you read through it all: how does that sound?
+1. Yeah, I personally really prefer this one, specially that it uses few number of categories. Still, other sub-categories may be needed (e.g. Fedora ARM installation doesn't (always?) use Anaconda AFAIK); but I think its OK to start with what you said and add new ones when/if the need arises.
Maybe having another sub-category under installation is useful: Hardware Support. I'd guess it'll contain many questions about non-free drivers and Fedora.
Oh and I wanted to remind that in addition to the use cases you mentioned, we have another primary use case too: looking to see if your question is already asked/answered. And I think with the first method you suggested, user would probably need to search all categories since in that case usually the variant the user uses is irrelevant.
+1 I'll add Hardware support under Installation.
Yes, but I think discourse takes care of that:
We'll have to rely on users searching for information before asking new questions. This will be added to the "welcome to askfedora" topic.
I'll create the English topics now, and ask our moderators to help with the other language specifici ones.
Summary: These are the categories we're starting with (will be tweaked as necessary, they are not written in stone)
Installing a new Fedora system: questions related to installing a new Fedora system
Customising a Fedora installation:
Using a Fedora system
Upgrading
<img alt="ask-english-categories.png" src="/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/raw/files/7f7285514f09954da4087ebfdcfde88291c2bdf249e34aa573de558400436939-ask-english-categories.png" />
So, this is how it'll look to a member of the language-english group. I'll now work on other languages. Closing this ticket now.
Metadata Update from @ankursinha: - Issue close_status updated to: Fixed - Issue status updated to: Closed (was: Open)
<img alt="ask-screenshot-with-descriptions.png" src="/fedora-join/Fedora-Join/issue/raw/files/354b1828366ad5dd7b4f94ca55ac3ae677bf65f80fa9c142cde8a667e2f01f7d-ask-screenshot-with-descriptions.png" />
Added descriptions. This is what it will look like. Now, I proceed to categories for each language.
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