#710 Fedora Kinoite logo needed
Opened a year ago by ngompa. Modified 3 months ago

phenomenon

A new emerging edition... emerges? Fedora Kinoite is (tentatively) planned to be introduced as the KDE counterpart to Fedora Silverblue. We need a logo for this new variant.

reason

Fedora Council approved the name "Fedora Kinoite" (Fedora-Council/tickets#344) for the upcoming new variant.

A work-in-progress draft Change proposal is being done here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Kinoite

The KDE SIG specific work is being tracked in fedora-kde/SIG#4, with @siosm primarily working on the bringup for this variant.

recommendation

"Kinoite" (pronounced KEY-no-EYE-tuh) is a blue mineral. In Japanese, "木のいて" (pronounced as KEY-no-EE-tay) means "There is a tree". A logo design should take advantage of this for making allusions to Fedora, KDE Plasma, and OSTree.


Very exciting! Love the name! Are you thinking a tie-in to the existing Fedora Silverblue logo or would it be alright for this to be more standalone?

This is an interesting question as it raises a more global one: What will happen when/if new editions are made for other desktop environments? If someone works on making an XFCE edition, should the logo share some similarities with Silverblue/Kinoite? Should we have a base for logos for rpm-ostree based desktop editions (ignoring Fedora CoreOS as it already has a logo with a strong brand).

To partially answer this question, I would say that I am in favor of a more standalone logo. Even though we share a lot of the technologies, I don't think we target the same potential user base as we use another desktop environment than Silverblue thus making it clearly distinct could help.

Excellent. I'm just doing to start playing around then. The below isn't a logo-form yet, but might help formulate some other ideas (and simplifications). Open to any and all thoughts.

Screenshot_from_2020-12-31_12-50-21.png

Metadata Update from @duffy:
- Issue tagged with: triaged

a year ago

@ngompa I see the target for Kinoite is F35 - do you have specific places in mind where the logo would appear?

Pretty much the same places that Workstation branding is used (installer, website, etc.).

@ngompa OK cool, so you need installer gfx, placement on the main getfedora.org website... is there going to be a separate Kinoite website too as Silverblue has? Also... so Silverblue AFAIK has no Silverblue logos in the distro/desktop itself... but I am assuming Kinoite would? (I'm not a KDE user so not sure where the logo might be placed there.) Silverblue I think has a Fedora logo in the About Computer dialog and I think that's it?

There is a plan to have a Kinoite website, too, similar to Silverblue.

I'm not sure if we're going to have the Kinoite logo in Kinoite itself right now, as I'm not sure how we'd swap the logo that shows up in KDE Plasma System Settings "About System" panel. We might wind up still just doing Fedora logo there. If we can, we might have the logo in "About System", since we already show the full horizontal Fedora logo there now.

(cc @carlschwan as we've previously discussed collaborating on Kinoite and Fedora KDE websites with him as a KDE websites person)

Thanks to @michaeltunnell, I found out that "Kinoite" is a wonderful pun for us, as in Japanese "木のいて" (pronounced as KEY-no-EE-tay), it means "There is a tree". As this is based on RPM-OSTree, this works out quite well!

Now I'm not sure which pronunciation I want. :laughing:

hey @ngompa and @duffy
I am interested in working on this can I do this ?

Hi @riyajawandhiya - sure! Do you need any help to get started?

Yes,
I was planning few stuff.

Color
1. Silver
2. 294172 color (standard fedora color)

few questions:
1. Do I have to use fedora logo too?
2. As per my understanding, this is immutable and less prone to bugs so do you want the logo to revolve around this or the word "k". Are there any other symbols or characters could I use?
3. Who are the competition?
Thanks :D

  1. I don't think you have to use any existing logo. See the first few comments for more context.
  2. You can pick any idea from the list given in the earlier comments but remember that what makes Kinoite special is that we are based on the KDE Plasma desktop so we should have at least one reference to that.
  3. I don't think this is a competition. We do not have a logo right now so we are open to suggestions and ideas.

Hey there! Do we have any updates here?

Friendly ping here. There are discussion about updating the Silverblue logo too for the new Fedora logo design so we might follow along here too: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/silverblue-logo-redesign/29340

Friendly ping again. Any updates?

I think I have solution. A basic image, reminiscent of a mineral .Easy to draw. Something similar to this. The image represent a unified and pure whole. This should be the aspiration of any good desktop environment.

png-transparent-diamond-gemstone-brilliant-cartoon-blue-diamond-pink-diamond-drawing-red-diamond.png

combine the elements so that the Kinoite logo looks as if it was made at the same time and the same artist as the silverblue logo . Build around a simple diamond or other easily identifiable and drawn gemstone.
fedora-silverblue-logo.png

It looks nice. I feels a bit too "perfect" or diamond shaped however. Feels like it could be more "raw".

Found some nice pictures here: https://www.mindat.org/gm/2213

So there are already some ideas:

  • crystaline shape from the left
  • diamond shape
  • modification on the silverblue logo (actually instead of the logo above #763 would be a better place to look at)
  • staying in brand with fedora itself

What do you think about if we create few logos follow these suggestion so that we have between 3 and 10 ideas that are scalable and fulfill at least one of the suggestions, then choose one?

@erikbask Ooh great brain food, thank you :) here are some more ideas riffing off of this - the KDE gears as a tree node is a bit of a fail here, looks too much like flowers. But maybe an interesting idea with a different tree layout or something that could work?

sheet1.pngsheet1.svg

Great responses. Thanks a lot!

I've already seen three ideas that could be very close to a final candidate. I would wait for two more days before giving some feedback, in case someone else also wants to drop in their ideas.

@kylerconway I wonder could we round off the sharp corners on the gear to make it more fedora-y? would the tree nodes still work?

My wife is a graphic designer and has interest in working on the Kinoite Logo.
Our goal is to create a logo that aligns "as a sister" to the SilverBlue Logo, and also falls within the brand identity of the main Fedora Logo. We should have a draft logo to consider at the Monday, 29 November 2021 meeting, in 2-weeks. Thank you. Regards, Jason

Not trying to rush the design and review process, just trying to show how important having one is... the lack of an official logo prevents Kinoite from being highlighted in other products like the Fedora Media Writer: https://github.com/FedoraQt/MediaWriter/issues/364

Okay, some feedback from my side:

First of all: I like all the ideas! We've got a lot of different suggestions and you can really see the passion people put into their suggestions!

I think both mine and Mairin's experiments have shown that "letter K as a tree structure" doesn't really work. "K with something added" or "Symbol with something added" have both developed a wide range of ideas. So whatever the end result is, it should probably be going in that direction.

From Mairin I really like H and J. H is very creative and fresh. J feels like a system that could be applied to multiple different OS version logos. E.g. replace the KDE logo with the Gnome logo and you have a similarly structured logo for Silverblue.

From Kyler I like both B and C. B has a structure that I just want to animate. I think there can be a lot of cool effects coming from this. E.g. think about A->C->B. And C is in many regards probably better because it is simpler.

From my own ideas I still like the last option if I consider the multi-color approach from the Silverblue redesign discussion.

@nycnikato I like the simplicity of the diamond. A little more "icon-ized" version I would put on the list as well. Personally, I don't see a strong association between diamonds and the distro, though.

@jajack004 feel free to add some ideas on the fly. But I hope you can see that the whole process cannot wait to maybe get one more suggestion in two weeks.

Thanks a lot for all your contributions! Even if your idea doesn't make the final cut, you helped a lot by moving things forward, inspiring others, and finetune the requirements that lead to the final design.

I suggest that we make a list of favorites between ourselves and next week start a community vote. This poll can be advertised in the community channels, social media and the next community meeting, which seems to happen in two weeks(?), and then we can close it a few days after that meeting. If we get at least 10 votes, we take the top one, fine-tune it, put it into multiple sizes, with text, without text etc., and then we're done.

My list would be the following, and I can already say that I can live with either result:

  • Mairin's H
  • Mairin's J
  • Kiler's B
  • Kyler's C
  • Erik's combined version

Hey @erikbask

I don't think the J I did is a really good mark... it would not work at small sizes and I think comes across as too floral / lacy which takes away from the base meaning if that makes sense. Maybe if the gears were just plain circles (but then we're not too far from Silverblue's logo at all. Which might be ok.)

I do also want to point out the ownership / process here:

We don't generally do design by vote especially for Fedora symbols that could be trademarks so I would strongly recommend against doing that. This is something that the Fedora design team (and myself and @madelinepeck as the Fedora logo maintainers) needs to make a call on. I don't think any of the ideas are far along enough at this point to make a call at this time.

I would suggest we keep exploring ideas for now!

Alright, I think I might have been a little too forward here. I'm on your side and curious about the process. Please help me understand the process and team a little better.

What are the requirements to move from exploration phase to the next phase?

What phases are there until a decision is made?

Where can I learn more about the structure, processes and org-chart of the Fedora design team?

If we hit a roadblock where the process is not clearly defined, would it make sense to use the Open Decision Framework as fallback?

Do you think that when we move from one phase to the next, it's a good idea to prune some of the ideas that certainly won't make it so the energy can be focused on the promising candidates?

No it's totally fine, I am glad you stepped up and got things moving on this ticket - we had left it open to collect ideas and I didn't realize so much time had passed and it's really past time to get things going esp with the upcoming Fedora website design refresh. Your energy and attention here is a well-needed shot in the arm!

So this is the general design process we follow for basically everything (shamelessly stolen from Gamestorming, we have a Fedora version of this but I don't have access atm as I just discovered my slides.com account was closed without my knowledge!):

Screenshot_from_2021-11-18_09-20-44.png

I would consider this ticket very much in the early stage / left-side and I think we have more ideas / concepts to put into the pool in the middle before it makes sense to start consolidating and selecting.

The Fedora design team page is here although definitely not in the best of shape but we do have some SOP documentation there and a brief overview:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design

Essentially if you're aware of Fedora Pgm Manager Ben Cotton's excellent flywheel theory - myself and @madelinepeck are the "flywheels" of the design team, we are ultimately responsible & accountable for the team and as Red Hat employees have ownership of maintaining Fedora's trademarks and branding from design and distribution. Everything we do is done out in the open and much of the time community members of the team take on tickets and help out.

For something that intersects Fedora's trademarks though particularly for an edition or offering of Fedora, Madeline and I need to make the final call on what is officially accepted to ensure a cohesive brand portfolio and from time to time we interface with Red Hat's legal team on trademark considerations since RHT has trademark ownership of Fedora. I wish trademark law wasn't what it was so that bit could be more open, but regardless it makes sense for Madeline and I as the most knowledgeable folks on Fedora's branding and where it's going to make a final call since (1) we'll be most easily able to figure out what will and won't work so the entire set of Fedora brands feel related and coherent (2) we're the ones on the hook to maintain any assets generated by the process moving forward!

Hope that makes more sense?

Yes, I learned a lot from this. Thanks, Mairin.

I didn't know about Ben's Flywheel concept and I really like it. I'm a catalyst. I explore uncharted territory, learn new things and start things quickly. But after a few weeks or months a topic area becomes boring and I look for the next territory to explore or the next thing to build up. So I'm very happy when I know a team has something like flywheels to keep it going when I get curious about another topic.

Your energy and attention here is a well-needed shot in the arm!

This is basically the stuff that I do and I'm happy if I can help this way. Thanks! :)


I also like your drawing. It shows clearly where we set priorities differently. It's like a diamond, right? Diverging and converging. Instead of cutting the diamond in phases, I want to do a diamond for each phase.

And then of course the output of one phase still isn't the final result that gets published. But the end result of each phase should be something that is a complete and useful as a whole, so real user testing can happen and more valuable feedback is collected.

prototype.png
Img from Baswolfs.info, further explanation in the linked blog post

That might be more interesting as a separate discussion point, though. Here I want to follow your process. And if we find over a longer time working together is fun, then we can discuss optimizing the process.


And last but not least: I think it's good that we have trademarks and want to follow the law here. Playing the game by the rules makes us team players. Clearly, there must be some final validation anyway before sharing something as official symbol.

From kylerconway, I like C. B feels too much info for something that could be a favicon. A feels "not enough" to express what we are / create a brand.
From duffy, I like A & E although the first one feels a bit simple and the second one maybe too much too.
I also liked the initial mineral sketch from kylerconway as it would make it very distinguishable but also maybe less connected to Silverblue.

@jajack004 This looks really nice! I like how it blends the Fedora bubble, the mineral feel and the K.

This looks pretty good, actually! I guess the remaining question for me is how does this look in the various "full brand" (Fedora Kinoite with the new logo) and "dual brand" scenarios (Fedora and Kinoite logo marks):

Full brand scenarios:

  • Installer
  • SDDM
  • KDE splash

Dual brand scenarios:

  • Website
  • Documentation

This looks pretty good, actually! I guess the remaining question for me is how does this look in the various "full brand" (Fedora Kinoite with the new logo) and "dual brand" scenarios (Fedora and Kinoite logo marks):

Note: the PDF Fedora_Kionite_Sheet.pdf has the full branding scenario. However, as the process moves forward the "official" graphic designers could modify it to align or improve. Thank you.

Here's another proposal. I tried to visually explain my rationale here, but mainly these are the requirements I would like to see in terms of a mark for Kinoite hanging together with the rest of Fedora's branding marks:

  • the shape of the mark has to be able to hang with the other editions and not look too foreign - this means it can't have too much detail, ideally would fit in the 3x3 grid or relate to the 3x3 grid the main editions' marks follow, should have a lot of curved shapes
  • the mark needs to relate to KDE in some way (KDE's logo is a K and gears, either/or could work as a visual link. KDE's logo is also blue so it'd make sense to choose blue)
  • the shape of the mark has to relate to os-tree as its a distinguishing feature of Kinoite vs typical Fedora KDE
  • It would be nice if it could relate to the mineral too

sheet2.png

I really like the leaf addition a lot @duffy ... I like the mono-color darker blue version personally (with the leap on top as it is in the 3rd line).

Looks great!

Oh, I like those too! So much nice work here! Awesome!

Maybe the left bar of the K could be more mineral shaped but this might not be obvious to do while keeping things legible.

@ngompa Do you have any opinions on the latest mockups? Would love to iterate / move forward on a narrower set of favs if you have any.

@ngompa Do you have any opinions on the latest mockups? Would love to iterate / move forward on a narrower set of favs if you have any.

I liked the proposal you gave here: https://pagure.io/design/issue/710#comment-765108

In particular, I liked some of the two-tone color ideas you showed off, I think it amplifies the elements of the iconography you have there and makes it stand out without being too "forward".

That looks really good!

@siosm ^ how are you feeling on this last proposal? Is it something you'd feel comfortable moving forward with?

@duffy Looks great to me too! Thanks!

It has to be hand drawn. Kinoite may refer to the tree or it could refer t=
o the mineral. Perhaps a blue tree forged from a mineral.=C2=A0
On Monday, September 20, 2021, 07:14:33 AM UTC, Timoth=C3=A9e Ravier p= agure@pagure.io wrote: =20
=20
=20
siosm added a new comment to an issue you are following:
``
It looks nice. I feels a bit too "perfect" or diamond shaped however. Feels=
like it could more "raw".

Found some nice pictures here: https://www.mindat.org/gm/2213
``

To reply, visit the link below or just reply to this email
https://pagure.io/design/issue/710
=20

I think we can represent the mineral via complementary backdrop artwork

@duffy We're also going to need variants for SDDM and KDE startup splash branding. These variants are essentially white on black versions.

SDDM branding tickets: #711 and fedora-kde/SIG#24

KDE Plasma startup splash branding ticket: fedora-kde/SIG#31

(We also need plain Fedora versions for the regular Fedora KDE spin...)

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