#412 Illogical ordering of paragraphs on stg.getfedora
Closed: Invalid 7 years ago Opened 8 years ago by kkofler.

The design on https://stg.getfedora.org/ first presents the 3 main "editions", then an abstract philosophy item (the "4 Fs"), and only then the "Want more Fedora options?" paragraph. The logical place for the additional options is right below the 3 "editions", before the "4 Fs".


The order seems logical to me, all the stuff (spins, ask, magazine, docs) under our 4 foundations can also be considered as '''more Fedora...''', so it's right to put it on the bottom.

IMO a brochure site (which is done for the main editions) should always contain also the principles of what it is promoting, and in our case these are our 4 foundations we are proud of.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with moving that above the 4f's -- the page's main goal is for people to get Fedora -- and if they are looking for KDE, having the 4f's in between make it a below the fold on even a larger monitor.

That said it is interesting to note that if you google search fedora kde, the top hit is the individual spin page -- which IMHO is a good thing.

cheers,
ryanlerch

My take (largely matching ryan's): this is a site to get fedora, and spins are yet another way to get fedora.

Those other items mentioned are certainly worth mentioning, but to me seem to be more about information and support (before and after getting fedora).

It may not seem significant, but any small step of positively responding to this constructive criticism would go a long way.

getfedora.org is thought to get Fedora, right, but it's meant to get the three editions. We made big efforts to setup the dedicated websites, and if you google you get the right pages, if you don't know where to go.

What about labs and Arm? They are not even mentioned on getfedora.org... The risk of all these changes is we miss the main goal of this website, and that is getting workstation, server and cloud. Or?

Sure, the editions certainly are the primary deliverables (and always have been listed first and foremost. I would dispute that goal would be compromised here.

hi, the order and layout is mostly the same as it was before and I believe the text is exactly the same. the only change here is the visual styling /gfx.

the spins promo actually is raised higher in this design than the pre f23 one (see here http://web.archive.org/web/20151026063347/https://getfedora.org/ - it was on the bottom left. now it's on the top left.)

i would be in support of scaling down the 4f's and the editions artwork slightly just to raise the content that is lower down up a bit, but i don't agree that changing the ordering makes sense.

Also, just to provide further rationale for why i don't think changing the ordering makes sense:

Honestly, ideally we'd use the inverted pyramid here, talk about what fedora actually was first, then offer the main downloads, then offer secondary downloads and other resources after that. However, after quite a few rounds of being involved in the design of fedoraproject.org over several years :) we have learned that having download links right up top and easily accessible is really important to a large portion of our user base. However, we also need to cater to new Fedora converts / folks trying it out for the first time who may not be 100% on what Fedora actually is or what differentiates it from other distros. So putting the actual high-level "what is Fedora" material below the fold, after no less than 3 specific downloadable options and 3 seperate websites each full of multiple downloads, seems a bit much. You kind of have to get to know someone before you can call them a friend?

Hope this makes more sense. I didn't mean to come off as dismissive in the previous comment.

Replying to [comment:8 duffy]:

hi, the order and layout is mostly the same as it was before and I believe the text is exactly the same. the only change here is the visual styling /gfx.

the spins promo actually is raised higher in this design than the pre f23 one (see here http://web.archive.org/web/20151026063347/https://getfedora.org/ - it was on the bottom left. now it's on the top left.)

i would be in support of scaling down the 4f's and the editions artwork slightly just to raise the content that is lower down up a bit, but i don't agree that changing the ordering makes sense.

Ok works for me. I'll work on resizing the big edition icons and our 4f's a bit, but keeping the order as it is now. Thanks.

we have learned that having download links right up top and easily accessible is really important to a large portion of our user base

All the more reason to not hide some of the download links much lower where nobody will find them.

Replying to [comment:9 duffy]:

Also, just to provide further rationale for why i don't think changing the ordering makes sense:

Honestly, ideally we'd use the inverted pyramid here, talk about what fedora actually was first, then offer the main downloads, then offer secondary downloads and other resources after that. However, after quite a few rounds of being involved in the design of fedoraproject.org over several years :) we have learned that having download links right up top and easily accessible is really important to a large portion of our user base. However, we also need to cater to new Fedora converts / folks trying it out for the first time who may not be 100% on what Fedora actually is or what differentiates it from other distros. So putting the actual high-level "what is Fedora" material below the fold, after no less than 3 specific downloadable options and 3 seperate websites each full of multiple downloads, seems a bit much. You kind of have to get to know someone before you can call them a friend?

Hope this makes more sense. I didn't mean to come off as dismissive in the previous comment.

Thanks for the explaination Mo, It makes sense to me now.

cheers,
ryanlerch

kkofler - getfedora.org is a download site for the 3 editions, not for the spins/labs/arm variants. spins/labs/arm have their own sites that are the primary download sites, and the download buttons for those are much more prominent and far up the page respectively.

what we do not want to do is overwhelm folks brand new to fedora with a choice of the 20+ or so downloads we offer.

robyduck already made the scaling down changes and pushed to prod, so i'm going to close the ticket now. feel free to reopen if needed.

getfedora.org is a download site for the 3 editions, not for the
spins/labs/arm variants.

See, this is one point where we disagree. Who says? Where is that documented?

If a clear statement on that from governing bodies is needed, then let's make that happen, but until then, I don't think it's fair to assume.

To put another way... the other stuff is already also mentioned on the same page, we're just asking to put it in a better place, particularly, someplace easier to find not below the fold.

We spent months documenting the fedora.next website redesign (if not over a whole year), posting mockups, asking for feedback. I'm a bit shocked to get this level of comment about it now, 3 releases later - these decisions were made long ago as part of an open process, this is not something that can be changed easily.

I understand that, just please don't go changing the goalposts here.

The reasoning behind not addressing this request... seems to be not consistent.

#1 We have addressed the request by scaling down the graphics so more content appears above the fold

#2 I fail to see a lack of consistency here. getfedora.org is primarily geared at users new to Fedora and thus we want to push them towards the primary downloads, the three editions. We have the links for getting more information about these high up on the page, then we have more information about what Fedora is directly below that. As I already explained, to do as is being suggested here and link out to spins, labs, and arm above explaining what Fedora actually is would be a really weird move because:

1 the site is for the fedora editions, the other sites aren't the main editions

2 if the explanation for what fedora actually is on the main site geared towards fedora newbies is below the fold, how could the site be considered appropriate?

3 overwhelming newbies with 20+ choices when they don't even know that they want fedora is just not good UX or design practice.

I don't see where any of what I have said has been inconsistent, but if you can point me to specific points where you feel I've been consistent I am happy to answer questions / clarify

I think a better tactic if you want KDE specifically to be at the top of this page is to speak with the council about having it considered as a main edition. This is really out of scope for the design and websites teams. We are doing our best to provide the optimal user experience according to the objectives / goals the broader project has set. We are not in charge of setting them.

My inclination here is to defer to design and websites in matters where they're the experts. And I think Máirín's explanation of the design goals make sense.

I'm not opposed to having an edition which happens to be KDE based, but I am opposed to having one for its own sake. The idea behind Workstation isn't to promote GNOME — it's to grow Fedora by focusing on a target area we can win and expanding from there, rather than throwing out possibilities and hoping they stick. And the getfedora.org site is designed around that.

Also, for what it's worth, especially with the redesign, the links to non-edition options are significantly more prominent than the equivalent in any other distribution I'm aware of.

Over a year later, the design is still as broken and hostile as ever.

To elaborate on it, I still have to scroll down TWO pages on getfedora.org to get to the spins on my 1280×800 notebook LCD. Scrolling down one page leads me to the 4 Fs (and otherwise only whitespace), which makes it look like the download options are already exhausted. No new user is ever going to scroll any further for further downloads.

I cannot notice any change compared to the original state, so I don't see how this is "fixed".

@kkofler changed the status to Open

7 years ago

Just look at the current production page at https://getfedora.org/ to see for yourself what I reported above (need to scroll down 2 pages to see the further downloads, also on this 1280×1024 LCD monitor).

If you go to spins.fp.o you will have it on top, I thought we discussed this to death now. Getfedora.org is not the spins deliverable website, although we mention there are more deliverables. For other images or alternative images we don't do that at all, we have just a link in the footer.

I reread this thread and looked at the Get Fedora page again; I don't think anything has changed to alter my opinion from a year ago.

Additionally, by all measures I have, the Editions strategy is working. As measured by mirror connections, Fedora usage is up sharply since we switched from the "salad bar of options" messaging — when previously the trend was flat or downward. And press coverage has been more positive than ever.

KDE and other desktop spins are an important part of the Fedora Project, and I'm very grateful to those of you who put so much work into making it an option for users. I know many enthusiast users love it and depend on the work you do. I think it's great that we highlight these options on the getfedora.org page, and I think the current placement works well in making them very prominent without being confusing.

Rather than mess with something that is successful, where there are improvements to be made, I'd like to see them in marketing for Spins (as an overall concept) and promotion of Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop in its own right in places where that helps grow Fedora overall.

@mattdm It's still diminutive, there's no reason those spin icons should be 'pushed off' as they are as right now. The point is to grow Fedora, I don't care if it's Workstation, Cloud or Server, but GROW Fedora period.

The more users using Fedora in any of it's flavors is better for a healthier Fedora community.

Maybe a compromise is to list the other spin icons in color. move them up, but also mention just above the these Spins are additions to Fedora and are supported by different Fedora Communities (SIGS) but contain the same Core of Fedora or somesort.

Sorry there is no compromise, we have clear targets and cannot be vague on them. See my reply on issue 411. I think @mattdm perfectly explained what we are doing and why.

Both tickets could be closed now, IMHO.

Can we look at this from another direction? Here are some potential audiences:

  1. People who are interested in Fedora on the desktop but don't know about DEs
  2. People who are interested in KDE but don't know about Fedora
  3. People who are interested in Fedora and KDE.

And I think we can leave off the case of people who don't know about or want either — at least for now.

With this marketing strategy, we are definitely suggesting that people in category 1 try Fedora Workstation first. That's not a web design decision, so if we want to revisit that strategy, this isn't the ticket to do it in.

For category 3, I don't think we have a real problem; I think the placement makes it easy enough for people who know what they want to find it — and, again, the web team redesigned the spins page to make it even easier. People in the know also can go right to http://kde.fedoraproject.org/ to get there.

And for category 2, I actually think what we have now is clearly better than rearranging the getfedora page. If I go to google (in a private tab to avoid my search history coloring things), and just search for KDE, I get, in order:

  1. kde.org
  2. KDE Community Twitter
  3. kde.org plasma desktop page
  4. kde.org screenshots
  5. Kentucky Dept. of Education
  6. KDE on Wikipedia
  7. Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop - Fedora Spins
  8. KDE Arch Wiki
  9. KDE Debian Wiki
  10. KDE openSUSE

In other words, we are the top hit of any distro for KDE. I don't think that'd be the case on a less-focused site. If I search for "KDE Plasma", our spin is the only distro on the first page of results (not counting an OMG Ubuntu howto). Same with "KDE desktop". And, going back to category 3, the KDE Spin page is the top hit for "KDE Fedora", as of course it should be.

And for category 2, I actually think what we have now is clearly better than rearranging the getfedora page. If I go to google (in a private tab to avoid my search history coloring things), and just search for KDE, I get, in order:

I don't think we need to rearrange much, but maybe instead of putting the spins in a square box they could be spread out in a thin horizontal line just below the big 4 F's, there's a lot of whitespace in there under the 4 F's.

As for discussion of goals, yes a FESCo ticket is in order to get official discussion.

kde.org
KDE Community Twitter
kde.org plasma desktop page
kde.org screenshots
Kentucky Dept. of Education
KDE on Wikipedia
Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop - Fedora Spins
KDE Arch Wiki
KDE Debian Wiki
KDE openSUSE

In other words, we are the top hit of any distro for KDE. I don't think that'd be the case on a less-focused site. If I search for "KDE Plasma", our spin is the only distro on the first page of results (not counting an OMG Ubuntu howto). Same with "KDE desktop". And, going back to category 3, the KDE Spin page is the top hit for "KDE Fedora", as of course it should be.

I'm glad we are, but the developers in Fedora KDE do not feel apart of Fedora 'fully' and it's time to heal this very old wound to have us join the Fedora family and feel like we're apart of it.

We have had several users coming to #fedora-kde on IRC complaining that they went to getfedora.org, downloaded the "Workstation" offered there and (completely unexpectedly to them) ended up with GNOME instead of the KDE Plasma that they expected.

The getfedora.org neither makes it clear that the Workstation "edition" is GNOME-only (the word "GNOME" does not appear ANYWHERE on getfedora.org nor on the Workstation download page!) nor that there are other options (the all-gray box with the other options is located so low on the page that nobody scrolls down to it). People get tricked into downloading GNOME when it was NOT the desktop they were looking for.

Not everyone searches for "Fedora KDE" on a search engine. Many people go to fedoraproject.org or getfedora.org directly (because they read the URL somewhere, because they came from a link somewhere, because they searched for just "Fedora" on a search engine, etc.) and expect to find KDE there, not just a GNOME-only offering that is not even documented as such. (Some may even expect KDE Plasma to be the default offering. Nothing on getfedora.org says that it is not.)

Also, for what it's worth, especially with the redesign, the links to non-edition options are s ignificantly more prominent than the equivalent in any other distribution I'm aware of.

https://www.mageia.org/en/downloads/

OpenSUSE also used to work that way, when they still did live media. (Now, they only offer a big installer DVD where the choice of desktop(s) happens only during installation, so there is no need to select a download anymore.)

Some smaller "remix" distributions also work that way (offering a selection of desktops on the download page), e.g.:
https://kororaproject.org/download
http://geckolinux.github.io/#download

Now, if you argue that for those distributions, the different desktops are the "editions" (which is really an arbitrary term, especially when you artificially distinguish between "editions" and "spins"), then the problem becomes another one: Why does Fedora have Workstation, Server, Cloud as the "editions" rather than GNOME, KDE Plasma, Xfce, etc. as those other distros? But I think that even with the current, suboptimal choice of "editions", the design issue is not unsolvable: The other desktop spins can be featured adequately by just using colored icons, making the small box into a full-width one, and putting it between the editions and the 4 Fs.

@mattdm:

Also, for what it's worth, especially with the redesign, the links to non-edition options are significantly more prominent than the equivalent in any other distribution I'm aware of.

I'm sorry, but you're flat-out wrong. Most people I've talked to seem to think we've retired every other desktop environment live image in favor a GNOME only experience.

On top of it, because we don't offer an Install DVD anymore, they don't know how to install a different desktop.

Choice conversation:

Me: "You should check out Fedora!"
Other person: "But Fedora seems to only offer GNOME? I want KDE" (or Xfce, or MATE, or Cinnamon)
Me: "Oh? You looked at getfedora.org? Here, scroll down some and click on one of those icons for the other desktops."
Other person: "Oh, those are clickable? It seemed like those were all dead since the rest of the site is colorful. And aside from the KDE logo, I don't even know what the rest of those are!"

Now, that's a little short and seemingly contrived, but that's essentially how my conversation goes with each person who I introduce to Fedora who wants to use a desktop other than GNOME.

I don't know you or @robyduck don't see this as problems.

We have had several users coming to #fedora-kde on IRC complaining that they went to getfedora.org, downloaded the "Workstation" offered there and (completely unexpectedly to them) ended up with GNOME instead of the KDE Plasma that they expected.

I think you can count them on one hand, if you look on the website you can see our default DE is Gnome, we have even a screenshot on the page...

The getfedora.org neither makes it clear that the Workstation "edition" is GNOME-only (the word "GNOME" does not appear ANYWHERE on getfedora.org nor on the Workstation download page!)

Again, you probably missed fedora.next totally. We don't want to be DE-centric anymore, we are not building Fedora around a DE as in the early years of 2000. The DE is just part of an outer ring, so please don't get back to arguments which are not valid anymore.

nor that there are other options (the all-gray box with the other options is located so low on the page that nobody scrolls down to it). People get tricked into downloading GNOME when it was NOT the desktop they were looking for.

When I visit a website for the first time I look at it carefully and even more if I look for something precise. Users who do not scroll down should do that the next time. getfedoraorg really is not the place we want to promote the single Desktop Spins.

Not everyone searches for "Fedora KDE" on a search engine. Many people go to fedoraproject.org or getfedora.org directly (because they read the URL somewhere, because they came from a link somewhere, because they searched for just "Fedora" on a search engine, etc.) and expect to find KDE there, not just a GNOME-only offering that is not even documented as such. (Some may even expect KDE Plasma to be the default offering. Nothing on getfedora.org says that it is not.)

You are repeating yourself here.
I just don't understand why only you are complaining about the websites. We have much better websites than before and all Spin SIGs are very happy with them. Yes, even the SIGs who do functional spins, and who don't have their icons on the main getfedora.org index. I feel that getfedora.org is perfectly getting what we want, and @mattdm also has the data to prove that.

@mattdm:

Also, for what it's worth, especially with the redesign, the links to non-edition options are significantly more prominent than the equivalent in any other distribution I'm aware of.

I'm sorry, but you're flat-out wrong. Most people I've talked to seem to think we've retired every other desktop environment live image in favor a GNOME only experience.
On top of it, because we don't offer an Install DVD anymore, they don't know how to install a different desktop.
Choice conversation:
Me: "You should check out Fedora!"
Other person: "But Fedora seems to only offer GNOME? I want KDE" (or Xfce, or MATE, or Cinnamon)
Me: "Oh? You looked at getfedora.org? Here, scroll down some and click on one of those icons for the other desktops."
Other person: "Oh, those are clickable? It seemed like those were all dead since the rest of the site is colorful. And aside from the KDE logo, I don't even know what the rest of those are!"
Now, that's a little short and seemingly contrived, but that's essentially how my conversation goes with each person who I introduce to Fedora who wants to use a desktop other than GNOME.
I don't know you or @robyduck don't see this as problems.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't see this as a problem when people cannot read what we are writing:
"The Fedora community also releases ARM images, alternate live Spins, and other variations of Fedora tailored to specific requirements. Browse them at the Fedora Spins or Fedora Labs website."
If they know only the KDE icon, they probably just want that, if I'm looking for MATE, I will know the icon and even for Xfce, LXDE or whatever I will know it. The title of this section is "Want more Fedora options?".
The only thing we will add soon, will be the alternative images (ex secondary) we are offering on alt.fpo. and for which we have just a small link in the footer for now.

I don't know if its constructive to further the discussion in this ticket beyond what has already been said. However as a relatively new Fedora user (and a KDE user). I feel I should add my observations from my experience with getfedora.org.

I think getfedora.org is a fantasticly well designed site. Many reasons why have already been mentioned.

I landed on getfedora.org looking specifically for a KDE version and had no trouble finding it.

Where I did run into issues was with understanding what the Workstation version actually is.

"Fedora Workstation is a polished, easy to use operating system for laptop and desktop computers, with a complete set of tools for developers and makers of all kinds."

This is a great intro paragraph. This is however the only info that we give about Fedora Workstation anywhere on the site.

getfedora.org/en/workstation/download/ has some nice info on how to get started installing but still doesn't give any specifics on what it actually is that your downloading.

I had to leave the page and search through a bunch of third party reviews to find out what it is.

I understand that we don't want to market this as the "gnome version". But surely we should at least link to a location where a user can find specific details on what packages etc they are getting?

I think you can count them on one hand, if you look on the website you can see our default DE is Gnome, we have even a screenshot on the page...

So you are expecting unexperienced users to recognize the desktop environment from… a screenshot?! Wow!

Again, you probably missed fedora.next totally. We don't want to be DE-centric anymore,

This is utter nonsense. Workstation is DE-centric, it contains exactly one desktop environment, the Workstation team is full of developers of that particular desktop environment, and nearly all the advertised changes are actually new upstream features of that desktop environment or its associated applications. Fedora.Next is just a scheme to force GNOME onto everyone without admitting it.

we are not building Fedora around a DE as in the early years of 2000.

You actually are. You just try to hide it in the hope that people will not notice.

The DE is just part of an outer ring, so please don't get back to arguments which are not valid anymore.

LOL, that is utter nonsense. As long as I do not get the choice of desktop environment when installing Workstation (and adding other desktop environments as after-the-fact options to install from GNOME through GNOME Software does not count! I don't want to install GNOME to install Plasma), and as long as the choice between the GNOME-only Workstation and the other desktop spins at download time is deliberately hidden from users, the arguments are by definition still valid.

When I visit a website for the first time I look at it carefully and even more if I look for something precise. Users who do not scroll down should do that the next time.

Newsflash: You are not the average user. You are not even the target for getfedora.org. The target users are people who want to get Fedora quickly (which is the whole reason you try to streamline the design as much as possible).

getfedoraorg really is not the place we want to promote the single Desktop Spins.

Workstation is also a single desktop spin. You may call it an "edition", but it is technically no different from the Spins. It is just getting unfair preferential treatment all over the place (and the artificial naming distinction is part of it).

You are repeating yourself here.

I was summarizing.

I just don't understand why only you are complaining about the websites.

I am not the only one complaining.

We have much better websites than before and all Spin SIGs are very happy with them.

The other SIGs are probably used to being second-class citizens. IMHO, they ought to speak out too, because it affects them just as much as it affects the KDE Plasma Spin.

To make it clear, I want more prominent placement for all Spins (move the whole box up), not just preferential treatment for the KDE one.

Yes, even the SIGs who do functional spins, and who don't have their icons on the main getfedora.org index.

The Labs should probably also be mentioned more prominently. I don't know why their owners are OK with being hidden the way they are now. That said, I think the per-desktop general-purpose Spins should be placed more prominently than the Labs, because that's how most other distros work (see the examples I linked to). I also think users often have more than one use case, so picking a general-purpose Spin and adding the software they want is the more flexible offering.

I think the More Options box should be reformatted into full width, use the colored icons from upstream instead of artificially grayed-out ones for the Spins, and have the text changed so that it clearly mentions what Labs are and how they are different from Editions or Spins (because right now, nobody looking for, e.g., a version of Fedora for art design, will find the Design Lab, because the Fedora Labs link is completely nondescript, there is no way to know what to expect there, "Labs" is not a self-explanatory term at all).

I feel that getfedora.org is perfectly getting what we want, and @mattdm also has the data to prove that.

The data only counts downloads. So if somebody accidentally downloads the GNOME Workstation and then goes "Darn, this is GNOME! I'm deleting this and getting Kubuntu instead.", it will still be counted as a Fedora download. If they decide to give us another chance, delete the GNOME download, scan the fine print for the KDE download, and download that one too, it will be counted as 2 Fedora downloads. So if download counts are the metric, you get the perverse incentive to drive people to download things they do not actually want. But the real goal should be to have Fedora used, not just downloaded! And thus it helps to make people think a bit before downloading, rather than have them click quickly on a random unwanted download just to increase your download stats.

Oh, and to answer @duffy:

2 if the explanation for what fedora actually is on the main site geared towards fedora newbies is below the fold, how could the site be considered appropriate?

The 4 Fs are not really "the explanation for what fedora actually is". To most people, they are just marketing bulldung. The explanation what Fedora actually is (a GNU/Linux distribution consisting exclusively of Free Software, except for firmware) actually shows up nowhere on getfedora.org at all! In fact, the only place the word "Linux" appears is as part of "Linux-Docker-Kubernetes (LDK) application stack". This is actually an even worse failure than the hiding of the Spins, and it is good that you point it out. I guess I should file another issue for that part.

We are getting away from an objective discussion, you now started to insinuate things that are just not true, they are part of fedora.next and the way we want to promote Fedora since F21 (that's two years ago now!).
Gnome (not GNOME) is our default DE, and that's a fact nobody can change actually. Therefor all our marketing/design/outreachs stuff will go in that direction, you can like that or not, but we need to be consistent here. getfedora.org is the place for our three flavors (they are not called editions), but this does not mean we have second, third or fourth class users or developers. Otherwise we would not have done all these websites, and we would not have kicked even the word "secondary architecture", calling them "alternative".
The best and most constructive comment in this ticket was the one of the KDE user @mciahdenn who also mentioned he didn't have any difficulty to find what he was looking for, even on getfedora. As suggested, we can for sure improve our messages for Workstation, Cloud or Atomic on getfedora, but we don't want to highlight Spins, Labs, Arm or Alt more than we are already doing. The reason has been explained again and again now.

our three flavors (they are not called editions)

Both @mattdm and @duffy call them "editions". You do not even agree on what to call them (ever since Red Hat asked you not to call them "products").

I still don't see why they need a different term than "spins" at all. This distinction is purely artificial and arbitrary.

Yes, we can call them also editions, all fine, but not products or spins, which will position them in a wrong way.

@kkofler: seems also I'm wrong with Gnome vs GNOME, apologies for that. Although that's silly (and was Gnome a few years ago, I remember that because I always called it GNOME and was wrong. Now I changed my mind and am wrong again...uff)

There are three separate threads I see going on here:

  1. The original argument that the ordering on getfedora.org is "illogical"
  2. A whole discussion about whether the Editions marketing strategy is good, and how it makes some contributors feel like "second-class citizens".
  3. Exploration of other ways we can make it easier for new Fedora users who are interested in KDE to find it.

The first thing (and the title of this ticket) is simply answered by "actually, it was done intentionally". It is logical; it's just that Kevin and several others disagree with it — although I'm not actually sure if it's the logic disagreed with or really the second thing coloring it. In any case, as I said above, this is the call of the Design and Web teams and I support it.

I hear you all on the second thing. Making choices is hard, and as much as I say that it's not meant to elevate GNOME in particular, I see how it can feel that way. But, the fact is that this approach to marketing works and a generalist one does not. Success for Fedora overall is good for all of Fedora, including KDE. Please also consider that there are many other important areas of the project which are also not featured in Editions. To me, none of these things are "second-class" nor are the contributors working on them. I'm happy to talk about this more — but again, this is not the ticket for it.

The final thing is possibly something the Design team could help with. I think other desktop environments should be available within GNOME Software, for example. I'd also like to see the KDE SIG take on more active marketing. (I'm even happy to talk about budget requests at the Council level for that.) But none of that is for this ticket.

I'm going to mark this ticket as closed. That's not meant to stop discussion — I just want the discussion to happen in the right place with the right people in a constructive way.

Further places to continue discussion:

  • Fedora Council discussion list about the overall strategy
  • Also Fedora Council about the "second-class citizens" thing
  • KDE SIG and Marketing lists about increased and better marketing for Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop
  • Design list for discussion of better UX overall for the people in Neal's theoretical conversation — start with the users we want to reach, the problem statement, and how that fits into the overall strategy
  • KDE, Spins, and Desktop list for discussion on presenting DEs in GNOME Software (code would certainly help, here!)

@duffy changed the status to Closed

7 years ago

The first thing (and the title of this ticket) is simply answered by "actually, it was done intentionally". It is logical; it's just that Kevin and several others disagree with it

How is an ordering of:
1. downloads
2. philosophical/marketing babbling
3. more downloads
logical in any way?

But, the fact is that this approach to marketing works and a generalist one does not.

How do you decide that it works? Download counts? I already explained why those are entirely meaningless: Of course, tricking everyone into downloading something they did not ask for will increase your download counts. But that is of no actual use at all for Fedora. (In fact, it is quite the opposite, because it gives us a bad reputation and will lose us users forever.)

There is an easy way to fix the issue at hand in the design. It has been pointed out several times in this thread. It is just that you folks stubbornly refuse to do the obvious thing because you deliberately want to hide KDE in a locked room with a sign saying "beware of the leopard".

@kkofler changed the status to Open

7 years ago

Oh, and as for this:

I think other desktop environments should be available within GNOME Software, for example.

I also already pointed out the futility of this approach. What sense does it make to require users to download and install GNOME just to be able to download the desktop environment they actually want from GNOME Software? This is ridiculous and unacceptable.

If you don't understand where I am coming from, imagine you are trying to get OEMs to ship machines preloaded with Fedora, and they offer you to add a button to their preinstalled Windows desktop (or even just an entry in Windows Update!) allowing you to download and install Fedora after the fact. Would that make you want to buy such a machine? Would you consider it a machine "with Fedora"? So why do you think that approach would be acceptable for KDE Plasma?

Why do you reopen this ticket again and again? You speak about tricking people and trying to hide the truth. This is just an assumption without any proof.
I think @mattdm resumed this endless discussion amazingly, and gave you also places where to eventually continue. However, in a democratic world, people will always agree and disagree with decisions taken by others, there will never be a unanimously agreement.

@kkofler please remember that everyone here dedicates large amounts of their time to this project because they love fedora and that includes KDE and all the awesome people who both use and maintain it.

I'm really sorry that you feel this way. However this discussion has moved beyond what the design team infrastructure is intended for.
@mattdm suggested some great places to continue this.

I'm closing this ticket again.

@mciahdenn changed the status to Closed

7 years ago

I'm fed up of the constant fingerpointing. Each time we ask for something to change, everyone claims somebody else is responsible. The bizarre ordering of paragraphs that hides the Spins is clearly a flaw in the design, and thus an issue for the design team.

@kkofler changed the status to Open

7 years ago

No, it is not. The topic has been beaten to death now, you cannot expect we change something (illogical ordering, which is the topic here) done intentionally, as @mattdm said, just because you disagree with it.

Yes, this is the PERFECT TIME to bring this up in FESCo elections and make this an issue for everyone to respond to.

@duffy changed the status to Closed

7 years ago

Please take this issue to the Fedora Council.

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