#89 FAmSCo member not an ambassador
Closed 4 years ago Opened 4 years ago by jkurik.

As has been discovered, one of the FAmSCo members is not in the Ambassador group as required by FAmSCo nomination policy. After a brief discussion Council members are asked to provide approvals and/or comments to solve this issue. Currently if FAmSCo does not have all its seats filled due to members leaving or other lack, the vacant seats will attempt to be filled by the following methods:

  1. If there are runner-up candidates from the previous election that did not have the opportunity to be on FAmSCo, they will be considered and offered a seat.
  2. If those candidates have been exhausted or FAmSCo does not consider them eligible, FAmSCo will ask Fedora community members that they think would do a good job if they would be willing to hold the open seats.
  3. If the open seats are still not filled, FAmSCo will operate with less members until the next FAmSCo election.

The proposed solution is to follow the point #2 and introduce the member without the FAS Ambassador group properly as an ambassador, providing mentorship, and continue with all actual FAmSCo members.


I am +1 on this proposal, to mentor him properly. He is active in other teams too, so I feel we would not decide against the spirit of the nomination rule itself.

If desired I can take care of his mentoring, otherwise and if he does not like that I will make sure to redirect him to another regional mentor.

Thanks for the proposed solution jkurik.
Robert, it will be an honour to me be mentored by you.
Of course I would like to stay as an member of the Famsco.
Let's see what Council will decide.
Thank you very much.

Just for the record, I am +1 to my own proposal :)

+1 for me as well - I like that the community has selected someone who will be approaching the role with very fresh eyes.

Hi, I know I don't have a vote or anything here, but I'm a long time (12 years) Fedora contributor and also an American (so maybe you can understanf my sensitivity to elections and rules.)

In other groups in Fedora, such as the SIGs and working groups, typically if someone without experience volunteers for a leadership role such as this, we ask that they participate for a while as a normal contributor and try again next round. There is no special power you get as a council member / board member / wg member / SIG leadership / etc. that would prevent you from participating in those bodies by attending meetings, taking on action items, and being helpful.

In that spirit, I do not understand why we would push for someone who does not have the base qualification when others may have wanted a position and didn't apply because they didn't meet the requirements. As someone who interacts with the ambassadors frequently in collateral and awag production, this concerns me.

Fred, I have no personal issues with you, and I am sure you are resolved to do your very best job and complete the process of becoming an ambassador whether or not you were allowed to join famsco in light of this issue. My concerns are around fairness and equality in our organization.

I share exactly the same thoughts and opinion as Máirín does, except that I'm not American but German (nevertheless still with likely the same sensitivity regarding elections and rules).

Hi duffy and robert,
Duffy, first of all, thanks for you comment and I know this is not an person issue.

But, IMHO I have some base qualifications that I want to show you in my defence.

I participated in almost all Latam Ambassadors meetings as an active member doing “.fas nickname”, voting and talking, and the most important: learning with them, since when I joined the Fedora Project community.

As you can see here:
https://apps.fedoraproject.org/datagrepper/raw?user=fredlima&topic=org.fedoraproject.prod.meetbot.meeting.complete

I organized this event:
"The XIII FGSL happened on November 18th and 19th at the Federal University of Goiás. In this event I had the oportunity to meet and work closely with two other contributors on the Project, Athos and Fred, which was one of the best things in the event." as Ana Mativi said (one ambassador).

When I called some friends (ambassadors) to come to this event that was close to my home-town, they gently came and teach me a lot about being an ambassador.
Of course I don't spent the projects money, I paid my travel and other things with my own money, cause I'm not an ambassador.
I also asked my nephew that he has an 3d printer to print the Fedora logos to give to the event participants, and we did it.

The event wiki:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/XIII-FGSL

this is the event report with photos (from one of the ambassadors website):
https://anamativi.github.io/fedora/foss/2016/11/20/fgsl.html

this was my first event report, for an non ambassador, I think it was ok :-)
http://www.fredericolima.com.br/fedorama/post/fgsl_report/

Another think that don't show that I'm not as close to be the best contributor at all but shows my attempt to be an good contributor is this Badges Report that shows me as the contributor that earned more badges in 2016:

https://badges.fedoraproject.org/report/2016

other qualifications:
I was chosen one of the Reviewers for the l10n Brazilian Portuguese team.
I'm Package maintainer.
Member of the Fedora FreeMedia Program.
Tagger.
I've helped Fedora users on freenode at #fedora-br irc channel, ask.fedoraproject.org and other social networks, chats, forums, groups like Fedora Brasil Telegram channel (500 members) where I'm an admin, reddit /fedora, Fedora Brasil group on facebook where I’m also the admin (3000 members). etc.

I'm feeling that I'm forgetting something, but I comment it later if I remember.
Thanks and sorry for the long comment.

There is another small contribution, but I'm proud of my initiative, is that for the elections of the Fedora 25 Supplemental Wallpapers, I wanted to send a photo with a chance of winning the elections,
so I started looking for photographers around the world to take part in the election.

So I met an Slovenian photographer called Ales Krivec and we agreed to send one or two of his photos chosen by me for the elections.
And we managed to win the previous election (F25).
I already sent for the election that is open (F26).
All photos CC-BY licensed.

This is one of the winners of the F25 supplemental wallpaper election:
http://dreamypixel.com/milky-way-over-mangart-mountain/

This is the photo I've sent yesterday:
http://dreamypixel.com/spring-reflections-lake-jasna/

He created this pages just for the event, providing it's photos by CC-BY license.

Hmm, before this gets too specific:
@duffy @robert I think it doesn't count if someone comes from a country or another, we are all sensitive about rules and nobody wants to change them.
That said we are not at political elections, we are an open community and I tried to not ride on a nomination rule (if we just look at that you are right) looking at the whole thing with wider eyes. Look, the last FAmSCo was almost unable to take decisions because they got stuck, had no quorum, etc....And they were all much more 'experienced' than most of the actual members. Our actual attendee rate is 6,5 out of 7, which is awesome!
Specifically, I would rather like to solve this as an administrative exception, than loose a contributor who is doing a lot in other areas. The spirit of this rule is to have experienced people, not newbies, but I bet Fred has much more experience than other people who are just in the ambassador group and since their mentoring are not doing anything. We are trying since a long time to get only people in the ambassador group who already contribute in other areas, and all this is fitting well here.
I hope you both get my point here, I am not discussing the rule itself, I would like to get ideas from fresh members and work on them, instead of finishing up in long discussions about who should replace Fred afterwards.
Thanks for chiming in here with your thoughts, I appreciate that, also because they come from two long long term contributors.

@robyduck thank you for graciously considering my feedback. It does seem Fred probably should have ambassador status already. I do think if an exception is made that at the same time efforts should be made to ensure this doesnt happen again, whether its dropping the formal ambassador status requirement and simply stating "ambassador status or equivalent experience" or taking steps to enforce the rule before the election.

I want to point out that I totally understand we're an open community project not a state or govt, but I think the letter of rules is more understandable than the spirit for newcomers, certain underrepresented populations, and those otherwise outside of the inner circle here (which exists for better or worse.) Making a bold move of proceeding despite not meeting a requirement, such as on a job posting for example, has been shown to enforce gender bias in hiring in the United States, for example. For open source to truly meet the needs of all I believe we should strive to be an inclusive project and part of that is keeping our promises and making our policy clear.

Thanks for your consideration, good luck in the decision.

+1 for me as well - I like that the community has selected someone who will be approaching the role with very fresh eyes.

Most important of all, this is something that we should amend. There election committee should verify the eligibility of the candidate. This is the second time we get in hot waters with Brazilian contributors. We once had a mentor for ambassadors that was not ambassador.

I think it was a honest mistake, that he volunteer to contribute more. But this also implied that the votes were made thinking that he was eligible. I think that the running candidate should be proposed to take the chair.

@fredlima can keep the good work and be elected the next time. If he keep the pace that he has shown, sure he will get more votes next time.

But this is only my opinion.

There is some context I feel is important here. Two years ago (give or take), FAmSCo was demoralized and collapsing, and in https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/20 we authorized elections for a FAmSCo focused on creating the new wider "FOSCo" body. This didn't succeed, and we ended up with another burn-out, demoralized outgoing FAmSCo. (Really, several in a row on that same path.)

So, instead (see meeting https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/famsco/famsco.2016-12-14-14.02.log.html#l-36), the Council is taking back the problem of a wider body, and asking the new FAmSCo to focus on significantly reenergizing Ambassadors over the next year, retooling for a beyond-the-lugs-and-linuxfests universe of the 21st century. We really want Ambassadors to be looked at from the ground up. That's why I'm I support the proposal of encouraging fresh, energized blood within the spirit of the rule.

There is some context I feel is important here. Two years ago (give or take), FAmSCo was demoralized and collapsing, and in https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/20 we authorized elections for a FAmSCo focused on creating the new wider "FOSCo" body. This didn't succeed, and we ended up with another burn-out, demoralized outgoing FAmSCo. (Really, several in a row on that same path.)
So, instead (see meeting https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/famsco/famsco.2016-12-14-14.02.log.html#l-36), the Council is taking back the problem of a wider body, and asking the new FAmSCo to focus on significantly reenergizing Ambassadors over the next year, retooling for a beyond-the-lugs-and-linuxfests universe of the 21st century. We really want Ambassadors to be looked at from the ground up. That's why I'm I support the proposal of encouraging fresh, energized blood within the spirit of the rule.

I expect from this FAmSCo nothing more, first of all what did suck on the old one, is this burnt out. Some was burnt out but that didnt count for all. But this is when one always speaks for all. FAmSCo meeting time sucked for me the most, always in the middle of the night, always with the strange network I have at home but still me was always there, cant be said from everybody else.

Why I dont expect something more of this FAmSCo is simple its already started with Sylvia Sanchez, just look for the logfile. ¨I am lost¨ ¨What is it about¨ ¨Ẅhat is the FCAIC¨ ¨Who is Brian Exelbierd¨ If you want to have a FAmSCo which looks at the rules from ground up, then you need first of all a FAmSCo which knows the rules and what they are talking about. And beyond LUGs and Linuxfests, is counting more for NA, EMEA not for all our regions.

So far I feeling punished, for doing the work. So for my stupidity toe stay up in the night and even pay for the tethering that I can participate in the meeting I am not relected, yeah maybe next time I will make a nonsense thread on the mailing list about alternative payment methods and maybe next time the official fb account of Fedora links my campaign instead of just one person.

If I look what @fredlima is doing here, I see clearly he cant analyze a problem, thats why he brings forward his contributions even the smallest ones. But if you look closer what shall I think of a guy, who says that he has submitted to the F26 wallpaper but very obviously cant read there the rules either or what shall I do with a submission in portrait mode, where we need 16:9 or 4:3 format?

Has there been any RFE/issue filed against elections application to fix such issue? Elections application should check eligibility like required group membership while adding candidate names when creating a new election.

Has there been any RFE/issue filed against elections application to fix such issue? Elections application should check eligibility like required group membership while adding candidate names when creating a new election.

@jkurik ^^

@gnokii Did you fixed these tickets during your last stay in FAmSCo ?

https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/

#359 #366 #397 #414

@gnokii Did you fixed these tickets during your last stay in FAmSCo ?
https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/
359 #366 #397 #414

Isn't #414 just 8 days old? How could @gnokii have fixed it?

Ticket #397 was closed as wontfix by @giannisk after long discussion, and you re-opened it.

Your comment tries to suggest, @gnokii didn't do anything during being in FAmSCO.

Has there been any RFE/issue filed against elections application to fix such issue? Elections application should check eligibility like required group membership while adding candidate names when creating a new election.

The last time I linked candidates in the voting app to FAS I ran to this issue: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/4601 . The solution was to remove the FAS link. Even the issue should be now fixed, I have not tried this feature again since the time, and I did the checks manually instead. That is also the reason why a candidate without the required FAS group appears in the voting app, as I have not done the check properly. So, it is not caused by a voting app issue.

@gnokii Did you fixed these tickets during your last stay in FAmSCo ?
https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/
359 #366 #397 #414

Isn't #414 just 8 days old? How could @gnokii have fixed it?
Ticket #397 was closed as wontfix by @giannisk after long discussion, and you re-opened it.
Your comment tries to suggest, @gnokii didn't do anything during being in FAmSCO.

<itamarjp> gnokii, the guy is not an ambassador now because you did not fixed the stuff in your last stay in famsco.

says it all, the guy really thinks he is right.

https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2017-02-08/famsco.2017-02-08-15.02.html

To my understanding , fredlima was added to the elections system without any issues system-wise. I also understand the Fedora community has trusted fredlima with their votes, no matter whether fredlima belongs to the ambassadors group on FAS or not.

To keep it short, my proposal during the last FAmSCo meeting includes the following:

  • Fredlima retains his FAmSCo seat.
  • Fredlima is offered ambassador candidate status.
  • FAmSCo continues to operate normally with all seven (7) current members.

Should the above not work, we continue with method #2.

Votes:
+1: giannisk, Kohane, robyduck
+0: mailga

Rest of FAmSCo members are kindly requested to cast their votes by replying on this issue.

In addition, I propose:

  • The Fedora election system will be set to reject FAmSCo candidates not belonging to the ambassadors FAS group.
  • The FAmSCo election rules will be updated in order to make it explicitly clear that candidates must belong to the ambassadors FAS group. Note the use of word "may" currently, which only indicates possibility.

I expect from this FAmSCo nothing more, first of all what did suck on the old one, is this burnt out. Some was burnt out but that didnt count for all. But this is when one always speaks for all. FAmSCo meeting time sucked for me the most, always in the middle of the night, always with the strange network I have at home but still me was always there, cant be said from everybody else.
Why I dont expect something more of this FAmSCo is simple its already started with Sylvia Sanchez, just look for the logfile. ¨I am lost¨ ¨What is it about¨ ¨Ẅhat is the FCAIC¨ ¨Who is Brian Exelbierd¨ If you want to have a FAmSCo which looks at the rules from ground up, then you need first of all a FAmSCo which knows the rules and what they are talking about. And beyond LUGs and Linuxfests, is counting more for NA, EMEA not for all our regions.
So far I feeling punished, for doing the work. So for my stupidity toe stay up in the night and even pay for the tethering that I can participate in the meeting I am not relected, yeah maybe next time I will make a nonsense thread on the mailing list about alternative payment methods and maybe next time the official fb account of Fedora links my campaign instead of just one person.
If I look what @fredlima is doing here, I see clearly he cant analyze a problem, thats why he brings forward his contributions even the smallest ones. But if you look closer what shall I think of a guy, who says that he has submitted to the F26 wallpaper but very obviously cant read there the rules either or what shall I do with a submission in portrait mode, where we need 16:9 or 4:3 format?

This is a strongly accusatory tone and directly disrespectful to other contributors in Fedora. None of these comments are constructive towards solving this issue and to me, this paints a poor representation of the project if this is how we talk about and treat each other. In no way does this uphold the spirit of the Code of Conduct of always being excellent to each other. Pointing fingers at other contributors and discrediting their contributions is not solving this issue. I believe that the fact these candidates won in an election open to the contributor community speaks to the belief that others hold them in high regard to fulfill their responsibilities.

Has there been any RFE/issue filed against elections application to fix such issue? Elections application should check eligibility like required group membership while adding candidate names when creating a new election.

The Elections app was just migrated to Pagure a few hours ago. I had some other RFEs to file against the project from a meeting this week, so I will also go ahead and file one for this too now.

@gnokii Did you fixed these tickets during your last stay in FAmSCo ? https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/ 359 #366 #397 #414
says it all, the guy really thinks he is right.

Again, this discussion is not contributing to solving this problem. I would suggest that a Council member close this ticket and defer further decision making to FAmSCo in ticket 418, as discussed. When they arrive at a conclusion for this specific scenario and also their discussion about filling a vacant seat, it should be the responsibility of FAmSCo to communicate with the Council about the end result.

As Justin notes:

  1. Please resolve this in the FAmSCo ticket
  2. In that ticket and elsewhere, please, please refrain from personal attacks on either or any side of the issue. Without even getting to the code of conduct, we need an Ambassadors group that can work together constructively without devolving into bickering. I know sometimes things get tense and frustrating, but I'm absolutely certain that everyone involved here has Fedora and Fedora Ambassadors' best interest at heart and has put significant effort, thought, and love into it.

Also, please remember that membership on this or that committee is an important responsibility and a meaningful commitment, but that it isn't required at all to participate constructively in Ambassadors or any other part of Fedora — even in building up the new next-generation Ambassadors we want to see.

@mattdm changed the status to Closed

4 years ago

Gnokii, is impossible that I asked who's Brian Exelbierd when I know him quite well, and I actually attended to his workshop about documentation and talked to him in FLOCK. So don't put in my mouth a question I never did.
Yes, I got lost in the discussion. Last days have been quite stressing for me and during the meeting everybody was talking at the same time. I do my best to keep up. We all do.
And yes, I know this is closed, but I wanted to clarify this. I couldn't read this thoroughly up to now.
Now, let's arrive to a good solution, agreed by everyone and without getting personal so we can move to other topics.
Thanks.

dear Sylvia Sanchez, its well documented in a logfile so I dont have to put things in your mouth.

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