#19 new terminology for cloud/server/workstation
Closed: Fixed None Opened 7 years ago by mattdm.

We've been using the term "product" to refer to the different Fedora variants produced and marketed as part of the new (or by now, not so new) Fedora.next plan. This has a number of problems -- we're not actually selling anything, and we don't want to give that impression. And some spins users have expressed that it doesn't carry the meaning that we did intend very well. So, we're looking for something new.

I had suggested "flavors", but that has its own problems: it's idiomatic, doesn't translate well, and apparently I'm the only one that likes it. :) So let's find something else.


Over in https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/17#comment-42420, Bill Nottingham suggests "edition".

The only two I can think of would be "edition" or "manifestation".

+1 edition

I like flavors too, so matthew isn't alone (but I understand it's drawbacks too)

I don't think "edition" is the right term as it's basically a synonym for version/release so I think it'll cause even more confusion than "product" when it comes to translations because it might be then confused/translated to the same as version so you might end up with the equivalent of "Fedora version 21 version Workstation"

manifestation sounds like some form of disease, and is quite a complex word and hence I also don't believe it's good for translations.

and flavours always gets associated with pictures of neapolitan ice cream

What about "blend" "brew" "infusion" or something along those lines?

or "impression" from the publishing world

Those will also be difficult to translate, like I can not think about any word in my mother tongue which can represent them properly.

Edition translates well (at least) to Czech.

+1 edition

But yes, we should give guidance to translators/marketing/ambassadors how to properly use this term in the right context.

Reading the definition of the word in a vocabulary, made me think that the word "edition" is perfect.
It also translates perfectly in Italian and many other neolatin languages ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages )

I suggest not making any jerky changes after trying the new terminology for just a single release.

'Product' does not necessarily imply 'for sale'.

The terminology is meant to stress that we are producing something concrete, complete, and finished, that has its own definition. It is not just a variant or 'edition' of something else, and not just a by-product of some vaguely defined activity.

A product.

Replying to [comment:11 mclasen]:

I suggest not making any jerky changes after trying the new terminology for just a single release.

'Product' does not necessarily imply 'for sale'.

The terminology is meant to stress that we are producing something concrete, complete, and finished, that has its own definition. It is not just a variant or 'edition' of something else, and not just a by-product of some vaguely defined activity.

A product.

See https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/17#comment:3 - we were kindly asked by our main sponsor to reconsider using product terminology.

Replying to [comment:12 jreznik]:

See https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/17#comment:3 - we were kindly asked by our main sponsor to reconsider using product terminology.

To put it bluntly: if we can't build a product, then I'm not interested.

I'd rather stick to the product terminology, changing it to flavor is kinda a negative message we're sending out.
Our main sponsors marketing folks are being a bit overzealous here, product is a common word, and Fedoraproject.org has a distinct identity than Red Hat if they're afraid that our products could be confused as Red Hat's. There wont be any confusion.

Product has been fine, "edition" is okay, "spin" has been odd and confusing, "flavor" (esp. with its AE spelling) would be a bad (childish?) choice. "blend", "brew", "infusion" would be even worse.

Before bikesheding over a new name we should step back and think again ... Do we really want to change it? Does it make sense? .... the arguments for changing it aren't really convincing and it makes us look bad to keep changing things every release.

And no "product" does not imply selling (selling in the sense of asking money for it).

I'd certainly prefer not to change.

Matt, is it possible to go back to push back on Red Hat a bit? I find it somewhat confusing they'd be having trouble with "Fedora Products", but not e.g. that Red Hat is now the primary sponsor of CentOS.

Replying to [comment:17 jwboyer]:

I'd certainly prefer not to change.

Matt, is it possible to go back to push back on Red Hat a bit?

And maybe let's try to invite responsible person from RH to this ticket for clarification/discussion (not my idea, credit goes to mclasen when we talked about it).

But I really don't see that much difference between product and edition - it's used in the industry, probably even more than product in this context.

Replying to [comment:18 jreznik]:

But I really don't see that much difference between product and edition - it's used in the industry, probably even more than product in this context.

I'm also opposed to this change. I think the "product" term finally sent the message that we're working on something that is well designed and finalized, not just on a platform. Neither flavor nor edition sends the same message and I think "edition" is actually closer to "release". If someone says: another edition of Fedora has been released I understand it as another release (e.g. F21) of Fedora has been released, not that we have released yet another flavor of Fedora.

"edition" is actually closer to "release".

True. It refers to a release cycle (unless the first edition is the final one), albeit without predicting how much the next edition will change.

On top of that, there's also "special edition" referring to a tailored/customised/modified release. Even Volkswagen uses the German translation of that: http://tinyurl.com/pfugyq9

Do we really want to change it? Does it make sense?

Good questions!

Product is a good word and I in favor of keeping that.

From the beginning I got the feeling that "product" was a place holder until there was a better word. A word that does not compete with other stake holders. So when I spoke to people tried to not over use product and use some other words. One that I used the most was "solution".

I have a situation related with hardware/software and fedora give me a solution. For instance, I installed a workstation solution on my home desktop.

From the above list flavor, infusion, manifestation, blend ... Translation is a problem.

The one that make most sense is edition. That also is one word that I use to avoid saying product to many times.

Just as a clarification, we're talking here about the marketing and press terms we use, not the overall plan of having intentionally focused, polished, and distinct releases targeting different identified audiences.

I'll certainly take the feedback back to RH and see who I can get to participate actively in this discussion. I am, however, going on vacation starting later this week and I think we won't get much done here over the holidays in any case -- so, let's continue to discuss.

Just to add another idea that maybe discarded very quickly. :-)

Fedora Collection <version_number>
|
|-- Fedora Collection <version_number> - Workstation Edition
|
|-- Fedora Collection <version_number> - Server Edition.
|
| etc.

Alternatively move 'Collection'.

Fedora <version_number>
|
|- Fedora <version_number> - Workstation Collection.
|
|- Fedora <version_number> - Server Collection.
|
|etc.

Replying to [comment:22 mattdm]:

Just as a clarification, we're talking here about the marketing and press terms we use, not the overall plan of having intentionally focused, polished, and distinct releases targeting different identified audiences.

This point is getting too obscured. All the WGs and their participants and collaborators understand we're building more focused deliverables now. We may still be working on them iteratively and not there yet, but the direction is clear. It doesn't matter if we are using the word "product" in our internal project discussions. We're only talking about a term used in official collateral, so it changes nothing about our efforts or our end results.

notting's suggestion of Edition is actually perfect. It also reflects the ''editorial'' nature of the WGs in terms of figuring out what to trim, what to enhance, and so forth.

Replying to [comment:23 philwyett]:

Fedora Collection <version_number> - Workstation Edition
Replying to [comment:24 philwyett]:
Alternatively move 'Collection'.

We don't need more words IMHO, and "Collection" does not give the same meaning or sense as "Edition."

I think 'variant' reflects it best, but from a marketing perspective, I would clearly prefer 'edition'.

So +1 for 'edition'.

Do we actually have to choose an alternative term here? Maybe it is enough if we just try avoid the product terminology on the website and in official written communication. That way we can just a plethora of terms depending on context instead of trying to come up what just feels like attempts of coming up with quasi-synonym. So the outcome here is that instead of trying to enforce people calling it the '3 Fedora dollops' we instead just say 'Try to limit your use of the term 'product' when talking about the Fedora Workstation, Fedora Server or Fedora Cloud to minimize confusion with the term as it is used in conjunction with the commercial Red Hat offerings'.

+1 for Edition, but puzzlement that this discussion started w/the council and not marketing...

Replying to [comment:28 jzb]:

+1 for Edition, but puzzlement that this discussion started w/the council and not marketing...

Seriously, LOL.

It did start with marketing and only marketing. See council ticket #17. So now we've come full circle and hopefully everyone is in the loop and there are no more surprises.

As for suggestions, I like Christian's take. If we really need a word, Edition sounds like the best so far.

Ah, apologies. I missed that in the maelstrom of email.

Fwiw, Christian's approach of "just don't mention it" seems acceptable to me too. Just add 'product' to the list of unmentionable repositories, technologies and terms...

I think it's softer than "unmentionable" -- it's not a legal liability, at least. I'm not opposed to Christian's suggestion of just avoiding it in marketing and official written communication -- that's why I started with just sending this to marketing. However, I found that it's really hard for me to do that and then also not accidentally slip into the habit of writing it or talking that way to the press. That's why I thought it easier to have an alternate term we just use everywhere.

However, if that's not what people prefer, and if it's just me with that problem, I can try harder at compartmentalizing my vocabulary. :)

So do we have any answer here? We are getting closer to the Alpha release and we should know what to use in the release announcement (even it's going to be plain nothing).

I don't know if a formal decision was made, but it sounded like "Edition" was winning in the polls.

Replying to [comment:34 sgallagh]:

I don't know if a formal decision was made, but it sounded like "Edition" was winning in the polls.

Yeah, let's make this official. I vote +1 for this, and unless anyone has a -1 before the end of the week, we can call it official by lazy consensus. That way, we can have our story straight for the F22 alpha release.

To reiterate, this does not represent any change in strategy or plans -- it's just a marketing / and outside communication thing.

Going to assume "edition" and use that in the alpha release announcement draft.

Looks like "edition" pretty much has it.

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